Christ just a pill to take ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by pinoybaptist, Dec 8, 2013.

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  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    I woke up early this morning and turned on my radio looking for a preacher speaking on the grace and mercy of God and for five minutes all I got were hellfire and brimstone preachers salivating on the need for the sinner to come to Christ and appropriate His shed blood to himself and be saved from, well, hellfire and brimstone.

    I had to turn the radio off and just go online to youtube and watch funny big dogs scared to cross small spaces because of cats watching them keenly.

    lol.

    All while trying to search in my mind where I read in the Bible that the Old Testament High Priests (pictures of Christ according to some 'scholars') went and filled small bowls with blood from the big bowl or reservoirs (or whatever thing you call it where the blood of sacrificial lambs were held) and instructed the other priests to go into the crowd and make sure that each and everyone in the crowd who wanted to dipped his finger into the bowl and appropriate the blood to him/herself so his/her sin for the past year can be washed away.

    I went thru Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and couldn't find one instance where an individual was told to wet his finger with the sacrificial lamb or bullock's blood and put even a small red dot in the middle of the forehead or even the armpit.

    Not even that scene where the Lord told Moses about smearing blood on the doorposts had anything that said that in addition to that smear each individual behind the door should be with even the slightest drop of blood.
    All I found were the High Priest sprinkling the people EN MASSE, as a body, whether or not they felt like it.

    Not even a hint, or a suggestive phrase.

    yet that is what these kinds of messages are all about.
    Each sick individual, with a mind to, should shake off a pill from God's bottle, and drink that pill.
     
    #1 pinoybaptist, Dec 8, 2013
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  2. kyredneck

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    Which 'sick individual' has a mind to? None. But no matter:

    5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2
    6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
    10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
     
    #2 kyredneck, Dec 8, 2013
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  3. kyredneck

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    "....the High Priest sprinkling the people EN MASSE, as a body, whether or not they felt like it....."

    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    you know, I asked a few preachers I know, in another social media site, if they could furnish me with just one verse that either states directly or just implies that the sinner who wishes to
    (1) should come forward to the High Priest at the altar and appropriate the blood to himself, and
    (2) the High Priest, seeing this sinning Israelite's repentance and presentation of himself for forgiveness, then dips his finger into a bowl filled with blood from that special day's sacrifice and put a red dot on the sinner's forehead.

    Or

    (3) a verse that says, or implies, that after the blood is sprinkled en masse on the people, the High Priest then stores inside the temple whatever is left on the blood for individuals who may have been absent during the ceremony and would like to be touched with the blood.

    Nope.

    They couldn't find any, and I don't blame them because I don't think there are any, except maybe in extra scriptural sources like Jewish customs and traditions, seeing how the Jews like to make and institute silly customs like suppressing a sneeze on sabbath's day because sneezing is work.

    rotfl.

    Every Old Testament book I looked at that concerns the sacrificial blood's lamb it was being appropriated to the people by that current year's High Priest.

    Even the New Testament book Hebrews seemed to reinforce that finding.
    The High Priest did it.
    And there is nothing either that shows Jehovah, who gave those instructions to Moses and Aaron (about the sprinkling of blood on the people), changed the rules for Christ, THE High Priest Himself.
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    The OT sacrificial system certainly illustrates the system of salvation under the New Covenant in His Blood.

    Under the old system, only those wanting to be atoned for came and received the covering of blood, whether by being sprinkled in the crowd or you dipping their finger in the bowl. According to Calvinism, no one would have come or wanted the blood covering. So the illustration nullifies Calvinism.

    But under the New Covenant, not only do we need to want the covering provided by Christ's blood, but we need God to accept our faith as righteousness, for He knows our heart and hidden heart attitudes, and then place us spiritually in Christ where we are washed by His blood, the circumcision of Christ.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    'Christ just a pill to take'

    That's synergism/easy-believism in a nut shell, turning salvation into a reward instead of a gift BY grace for hundreds of years.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Can you show me in scripture where it says this?
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    well yes..... this all stems from NOT believing in Total Depravity. Next we question the Trinity (via disavowing Particular Redemption). Note there are people on this board who claim that definite atonement (particular redemption) is another gospel & so they claim a universal redemption as correct. So these people all believe that Christ died for all and that the only thing that keeps them from the benefits of His death is their unbelief or lack of faith......so you nailed it P4T, in their eyes its not a gift, rather a reward for being good boys & girls. Isnt that what we accuse RC's of.....a Works Based/Rewards Salvation?

    But to stress a point, we Monergists do not say that Christs death was inadequate to save all men & women. Rather we stand together in affirming that the value of Christ's death was so great (in fact, infinite) to atone for the sins of all the people in all ages of the world. So there is your blood sacrifice.

    PS: Interesting enough, Ive seen on this very board a disavowing of the song "Amazing Grace"

    Stunning right! :laugh:
    1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
    that saved a wretch like me!
    I once was lost, but now am found;
    was blind, but now I see.

    2. 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
    and grace my fears relieved;
    how precious did that grace appear
    the hour I first believed.
     
    #8 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  9. preacher4truth

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    It's 'do this (believe) and I'll give you eternal life'.

    The dog used to roll over and we gave him a beggin' strip.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Just a thought....could there be a connection in Santa Claus (wearing all red & giving presents to good boys & girls) ..... Is that to be our ideal? Hmmmmm
     
  11. convicted1

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    The pentecostals have to take two pills.......
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    punch line? :type:
     
  13. Skandelon

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    It is a gift by grace through faith. And salvation is not of works, because (1) believing isn't a work (it merits NOTHING). And even we believe that faith is something he grants us through sending his message of redemption because "faith comes by hearing." The difference is that we don't believe that is irresistibly applied (as do Calvinists), but instead believe that people can, if they so choose, trade the truth of God in for lies and thus have NO EXCUSE. Excuses like, "I was born unable to do anything about my condition, hated by my maker, and never granted what I needed to respond willingly to Him." Calvinism gives all unbelievers that excuse for their unbelief and that is an error.

    Romans 10:9 states, “That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Verse 13 adds, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
     
  14. Thousand Hills

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    second baptism/filling with HS??
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Give this man two Holy Spirit pudding pops...don't you hill folks like it nanner flavored kind?
     
  16. Thousand Hills

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    Yeah buddy, you just gave me a great idea for a new business venture. It will require some capital though, I'll set up a pay pal account and you brothers up north can start sending funds immediately. That is if you want to get in on the ground floor and experience an outstanding ROI. :tongue3:
     
    #16 Thousand Hills, Dec 9, 2013
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  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Carpet Bagger..... I thought all the crooks were in Wallstreet....guess again :laugh:
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    We believe that too, right after we are quickened due to DIVINE MERCY ONLY......then we come to faith. This Gift, this divine Mercy forces us to cry out, " Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me"

    Surely you can see that as long as we believe that we are in control of our own destinies, we will never never assume that posture. But when we come to the point of understanding that we are in the hands of a just & Holy God, that we are without hope of salvation apart from His free and utterly sovereign intervention, then we will call for mercy, which is the only right response.

    The Lord says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" Romans 9:15. So if we believe that then our cry will be that of the Tax Collector: "God have mercy on me, a sinner" (Luke 18:13). Who can fault a doctrine that does that?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Don't you think the original author's could have added that qualification if they so desired? Couldn't the have simply written, "For whosoever is irresistibly quickened shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.”

    The fact that they could have said that and didn't should reveal something to you. (1) That you are incorrect, or (2) that what you believe isn't worth mentioning even if it is correct.

    What practical good comes from the belief that God has set all men's destiny and nothing you say or do will change that? Even if its true it is an impractical, irrational way of living, because anyway you look at it, you live as if you are contra-causally free...even if you don't believe you actually are.

    I think you have an incorrect perspective of our belief. Imagine the feelings of the Prodigal son when he decided to return home to beg for forgiveness. Do you think he felt he was 'in control of his destiny?' OR do you think he was hoping against all hope that his father would have mercy on him in spite the fact that he deserved to be stoned to death for what he did.

    See, your perspective of our view is that we think God owes us forgiveness simply because we are willing to beg for it, but that is NOT TRUE. OUR DESTINY rests fully in the hands of a merciful father, who has every right to condemn us to hell EVEN if we humbly believe and beg for forgiveness. Our faith and confession doesn't earn our salvation. We still could be sent to hell and it would be perfectly just of God to do so....and if that is true, then our destinies are completely UP TO HIM.
     
  20. Skandelon

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    No one. I couldn't agree more.

    Of course he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, but according to scripture who does God give mercy to? Just to Jews, as was a common misconception of those Paul is having to rebuttal? Or does God have mercy on both Jews and Gentiles? If yes, then which ones?

    "Humble yourself and you will be exalted."
    "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
     
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