Christ laid down His life for who?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by massdak, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    did Christ lay down His life for sheep and goats?

    answer Jhn 10:15   As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
     
  2. Frogman

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    Wait, I don't have any wool :eek:
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Jesus said that he lays down his life for the sins of the world. If you live in this world and if you sin, then Jesus died for you!
     
  4. Frogman

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    He also said he knows his sheep and they hear his voice. Note that he knows his sheep.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Is God, hence Jesus, not the creator of heaven and earth? Therefore all mankind are potentially Jesus' sheep. I say potentially because Jesus' leaves it up to his creation to decide based upon divine persuasion whether or not to lay down our individual spiritual lives to live for Jesus. Those who live for Jesus, are Jesus sheep, and He knows every one of them, and every one of them hear his voice.
     
  6. Frogman

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    A very significant realization.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Yelsew

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    A very significant realization.

    Bro. Dallas
    </font>[/QUOTE]That realization is not new with me, how about you?

    Even so, because Jesus was lifted up on that old rugged cross, ALL men are drawn to him. Not all men become His sheep, because many of them refuse to believe, which is the only requirement to be a sheep in Jesus sheepfold. It is by believing that one is enabled to hear the voice of the Shepherd.
     
  8. Frogman

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    You have summarized our disagreement and it remains that I am in disagreement with your belief. Please know this is not personal. I cannot see a Sovereign God who is unable to perform his will according to Ps. 110.3

    That is our difference.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Yelsew

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    That's because you cannot see that in God's sovereignty, He elects to reveal Himself to man through persuasion, all the while allowing man to exercise his God given ability to hear, to think, to evaluate, and to choose to believe in God.

    God leaves the choices to man. All through scriptures, man is given choices by which to live life. Even the Pharoah was given the choices to make. Even Nebuchadnezzar was given the choices to make. Mary the mother of Jesus was given the choice, you see she could have refused to allow God to use her womb.

    How is it possible that God would deny man the choice of believing in His only Begotten Son?

    No, Bro. Dallas, my God does not deny those who hear the word and believe and ALL mankind is able and enabled to hear and believe.
     
  10. Frogman

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    So, then you must take care, because your examples run very nigh to the depths of the swift, but deep currents of salvation by works. What would have happened to Mary eternally had she refused to nourish the Son of God in her womb?

    I cannot see what you believe, because I see a God whose word does not return to him void, but returns having accomplished that to which he has sent it. Is it sent unto salvation, thus it returns having yet another born into the kingdom, is it sent unto condemnation, thus it returns having accomplished that to which it was sent. These things are not left up to men, nor are all men enabled to hear and know these things, or else universalism would not be untrue. What man hearing and understanding these things, the eternal nature of them being reality to him, will reject the redemption found in Christ?

    I would say none, but alas, there are those who do by all appearances reject the message, thus they obviously are not hearing nor understanding its eternal implications.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Do you understand everything that you believe? If yes, then why do you believe it? The very essence of belief is not understanding, but hope. Belief, which is faith, is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So, understanding is not necessary to belief! Scriptures do not say that man's understanding brings salvation, but only that man's belief is essential for man to be saved. You don't need to understand aerodynamics in order to know that a rescue helicopter is capable of lifting you out of your peril and carrying you to safety. It is helpful to know it is happening though.

    Though God's word is sent out to man, and does not return void, it has done what it was supposed to do, and that is to make man aware that God exists and that God wants man to come to him. It has the effect of drawing or repelling man. It provides the basis for belief, which is also the basis for rejection.

    Where does it say that God's word results in salvation only? Were the Egyptians saved? Were the Babylonians saved? Were the Sodomites saved? Were the Jews saved? God's word went to all of them too!

    We'll never know what the ramifications of a refusal on Mary's part may have been....Thank God!
     
  12. Frogman

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    Yelsew, unless I have misunderstood you in all our posting, I have thought you were constantly defending the idea of man coming to Christ through his intellect.

    what else have you meant by weighing all the facts and choosing based on those facts?

    If I have been wrong, then so be it.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Me2

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    if it is the faith of man. then it will be the works of mans.

    if it is the faith of Jesus christ, then it is the works of Jesus christ.

    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    makes sense to me. mans faith..dead faith

    Me2
     
  14. Yelsew

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    As a counter to your insistance that man cannot, has not the ability, is totally depraved, I have been posting what the scriptures reveal to me about man, and that is that Man is capable, has the ability, is not Totally Depraved! Even so, man sins, and is in need of forgiveness, but that man's sins do not keep man from being saved because it is man's faith by which man is saved.

    I have agreed with you consistantly that God is the only one who saves.

    Unlike you, I have stated that in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, that God saves the willing "whosoevers" whereas you insist that only the elect can be saved.

    We have agreed that man's works do not and cannot save man.

    Unlike you saying that Jesus died for the elect, I have consistantly repeated Jesus teaching that He died for the sins of the World, not just the elect.

    I have consistantly stated that Jesus sacrificial atonement of the sins of the World Justifies mankind, and that man's belief in Jesus sanctifies the believer, whether elect or not!

    You have said that man cannot believe without first being regenerated. I have consistantly said that by believing man is regenerated.

    Have I stated your beliefs accurately?
     
  15. Frogman

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    Yes, and I believe them even when you say them.

    ;) [​IMG]

    May God richly bless you.

    Bro. Dallas

    I will continue to believe that God regenerates prior to belief. that no man will repent except that he believes he is in need of a savior, that in Christ he has a savior. Thus he is a believer before he ever repents. To believe, as you know, is to have faith, to have faith is to believe in that which is unseen, a carnal natural man cannot do this. He/She must be acted upon by the Holy Spirit of God.

    This is what I believe. I believe it is supported by scripture. Because I believe this will only happen in the elect does not mean I nor you should not tell everyone we meet, I beleive this is also ordained of God. Whether they are eternally saved or not is the work of God and not me. There is only one door and no man can come to the Father except through that door and no man can come through that door except he be drawn by the Father and no man coming through that door will be cast away. These who are drawn are your whosoevers. I have no problem with whosoever thirsteth let him come, because only the one the Holy Spirit has made to thirst will come to drink and he/she shall freely drink of the water of life. Our primary difference is not who can be saved but whether they are able to do it in their present condition without being regenerated. Quickening is this regeneration, this, coming, repenting, believing is all done by the Grace of God through His Spirit changing the will of man and thereby making the person willing in the day of His power. Because I believe it requires quickening I can agree with Philippians 1.6, because you believe man receives this quickening only after he believes, you cannot agree with Philippians 1.6.
     
  16. Yelsew

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    There you go again using terms that we have not been using. You inject "Repent" into the equation when it has not been in the equation before. You say that man cannot repent until regenerated, and we have agreement on this, but it has nothing to do with salvation? Repenting from sinning is what one does when confronted by one's sins, not when confronted by one's eternity. You see, Sins do not keep one from eternity, lack of faith does and repentance from sin does not equate to faith. Even the unfaithful repent from sins...especially when getting caught may cost them something.

    Regeneration is believing. For all believing is of the spirit, and when the spirit is persuaded by the evidence presented, it is regenerated by that evidence. Thus it is by belief that the spirit is regenerated.

    If carnal man cannot, as you say, believe in that which is unseen, then man cannot believe in anything. Man cannot believe in air, man cannot believe in love, man cannot believe in space, that vast uncharted sea of nothingness in which the earth orbits around the sun, and in which man has made himself a temporary traveler with permanent ambitions. The point is, unregenerated Man CAN BELIEVE IN THAT WHICH IS UNSEEN, and does it all the time. Man has difficulty believing in the concept of God, the idea that God loves man, the idea that God wants to give man really good gifts, etc. Man has difficulty believing that by believing in God, God gives man eternal life, not to mention the lengths that God goes to to redeem man. Just as the evidence for air exists, the evidence for God exists. If man can believe that air exists, man can believe in God. So it comes down man choosing to believe in God like he believes in other unseen things. Then once he believes in God, the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth for him and draws him closer and closer to God. The Holy Spirit confronts man with man's sins and man confesses his sins, receives forgiveness and repents from doing them, all the time being strengthened in his faith.

    If carnal man cannot, as you say, believe in that which is unseen, there would have never been a single skyscraper built in New York City, of Chicago, or San Francisco or any other major city. Skyscrapers exist because carnal man can see the unseen. The problem is that those who "preach" the word do not present the Gospel in the terms that carnal man understands (sees) that which is unseen. The preachers expect to reach carnal man on the preachers terms, and not on the carnal man's terms. That is the reason why I use so many seemingly "humanist" illustrations. The people that I deal with are not preachers, do not attend church, and do not understand God in the "traditional" terminology of 'the church'.
     
  17. Felix

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    Unbelievable!

    Are we to say than, that 'regeneration' is a direct result of our faith? I always thought it was a sovereign and direct work of the Holy Spirit!

    "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" Tit 3:5
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Unbelievable!

    Are we to say than, that 'regeneration' is a direct result of our faith? I always thought it was a sovereign and direct work of the Holy Spirit!

    "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" Tit 3:5
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, we are not to say than,that 'regeneration' is a direct result of our faith! REGENERATION is the change from unbelief, or lack of faith, to belief, 'having faith'. That which had no faith now has faith! The change from unbelief to belief is the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit That which was dirty was made clean by the washing which is regeneration, or the change from dirty to clean.

    Don't be confused in this matter, "the change" is the new birth. The 'old that was' is no longer, but 'is replaced by the new', it is the change from unbelief to belief, the change from the old nature to the new nature.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Frogman and Yelsew; [​IMG]
    This elect thing I'm not sure the Bible says that only the elect will be saved. I tried to answer this question for my self and haven't been able to.
    If the elect only is saved then how would one know they are elect. Some in the archives say that you know your elect when you are continuing in Him. While I have no doubt that if we continue in Him we are saved but, it is possible that your not the elect?. A non elect person could continue on the basis that he thinks that he is elected. Deceived, maybe, but striving to be elected. I've heard many say that some are predestined to destruction because they weren't elected.
    It would seem to me that if many are called and few chosen, this would mean that those chosen are chosen because of there response to the call. As I read more post here I see this as truth. Some deny it's so, but the evidence seems fairly clear to me. Why can't this be so if you disagree?
    One post in particular was from frogman. About a person he knew who couldn't find peace. Peace of mind the kind that surpasses anything you've ever known, I've always felt was a Standard gift from God once you commit to Him.Could this person be a person who is deceiving him self to think he is elected. If a man comes to the light why would God destroy him?.

    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  20. Yelsew

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    ILUVLIGHT, It seems to me you have found the truth!
     

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