Christ or Will Power? Christ's Blood or Man's Ability?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by KenH, May 2, 2003.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    Is salvation based on Christ, or on the will power of man? Is salvation based on the blood of the cross, or on man’s ability to appropriate that finished work?

    In the case of both questions, I affirm the former and reject the latter.
     
  2. Frogman

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    Amen, I agree.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. William C

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    Translation: In the case of both I affirm the part of scripture that teaches the work of God in the New Covenant, but I ignore the God given responsiblity of man to enter into that same Covenant.
     
  4. The Archangel

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    But doesn't the New Covenant language speak of God "Removing the heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh?"

    Even so, does God ask, like a used-car salesman, "What do you have in trade?"

    Nowhere does the Bible, espically in the New Covenant language, speak of man doing anything. It is always a complete, total, and sovereign act of God.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  5. William C

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    Yes, I believe God does give us a new heart. He gives it to those by His Spirit to those who believe. You like to separate the Holy Spirit's work into two parts. Regeration and then indwelling. I don't see that supported anywhere in scripture. It is something you have to add to support your presuppositions.

    What? Have you heard of circumsistion and the works of the law? That was what God required in the Old covenant. Christ fulfilled those requirements for us and we are clothed in him if we believe.

    Look up the words believe and faith in you concordance and you will see that man is required to do something. It's called FAITH.

    Old Covenant was entered by works
    New Covenant is entered by faith.

    They are not one in the same thing as Calvinist try to make them so as to make the claim, "We aren't saved by works."
     
  6. KenH

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    You are embarassing yourself now, Bill. :(

    The word "do" means to execute, perform. You are teaching salvation by performance. That is a false gospel according to the Bible. I think you need to rethink your teaching.

    Once again, your argument is toast, Bill.
     
  7. The Archangel

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    Bill,

    How can this be? Look at the following:

    Ezekiel 36:
    25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (NASB)

    Notice the following:

    1. God gives the new heart.

    2. He puts a new spirit within us

    3. THE RESULT: He will cause us to walk in His ways.

    The order here is simple to see. Regeneration, Indwelling, THEN obedience.

    It is possibly one act. That's not the point. The point is that God does the work. Man is never suggested as being the one who allows this.

    circumsistion Interesting word....is that like "Superstition?" [​IMG] I sometimes, too, let my fingers get ahead of me. Our slogan?--"Bad spellers of the world--UNTIE! :D

    Of course it was required. Could the people ever do it? No. We see this in many places not the least of which is the need for a sacrificial system because they couldn't keep the law. Circumcision and the law did not save. In fact, it could not.

    I agree with what is written (Probably not your intention, however).

    I agree. Salvation is conditional--on our faith. However, faith is a gift of grace. It is a package-deal. Faith is a gift of God.

    Blessings, my friend (and fellow bad speller! [​IMG] )

    Archangel
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

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    I think the calvanist position is biased in the direction of to much absolutism.

    Let's consider an example. I work for my employer and even put in some overtime. At the end of the work day my employer gives me a check. It is money I earned by my work. So, after hours, I take it to the bank and endorse it.

    Then I go back to my boss and ask for more overtime, based on the work I did taking the check to the bank and endorsing the check. The boss argues against me and we're up before the small claims judge.

    "But Judge", I say, "I had to move my body from home to the bank, I had to physically move the pen across the back of the check, all that is scientifically defined as work. So I should be paid overtime."

    The company rep replies "Hmmph. You were off the clock, doing that on your own time. This does not count as work."

    The judge for some reason rules with the company.

    Now Paul explicitly states, in the sections where he is discussing this subject, that we are talking of how when a man works he is worthy of his pay, but God's gift of salvation is by grace.

    It therefore seems to me that the definition of "work" here shouldn't be so all inclusive as to include every little thing a man ever does in his life, but only those things he does when "on the clock", doing good deeds that will earn him salvation. That doesn't work, of course.

    When he chooses to accept God's gift of free grace, he is "off the clock".
     
  9. KenH

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    The actual difficulty is not whether we "do" something(I was just having some fun with my nemesis, Brother Bill, [​IMG] since he was caught in a semantic problem). Our disagreement in this forum is why do we repent and believe, is it naturally built into man to be able to do so or not?

    We Calvinists argue that it is not, that the "want to" must be supplied by God through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit since man lost "free will" in The Fall and now only has "free choice" within the confines of his nature. He needs a resurrected soul, a new heart, a new birth, in order to come to Jesus in repentance and faith. Short of this happening, he cannot come to Jesus in repentance and faith as his unregenerated sinful nature will not supply the "want to".
     
  10. ScottEmerson

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    Salvation is based on the work of Christ. It's application is based on the choice of man. Salvation is based on the blood of the cross. It is man's responsibility to apply that blood to himself.

    You paint a false dichotomy.q
     
  11. Hardsheller

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    Scott,

    L.R. Scarborough, Evangelistic President of Southwestern Seminary, Fort Worth Texas, who succeeded B.H. Carroll disagrees with you.

    He wrote in his book “With Christ After the Lost” the following in Chapter Six entitled “The Spiritual Steps to God – The Soul’s Salvation”

    He presented a list “What God Does Before Salvation”

    1. He foreknows, predestinates, elects
    2. He calls
    3. He Convinces and convicts of sin.
    4. He quickens
    5. He worketh Godly Sorrows
    6. He giveth repentance

    He also speaks of the effectual atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    My question is - Why do Southern Baptists disavow their own heritage so easily? Dr. Scarborough was one of the greatest soulwinners the SBC has ever seen.

    Everybody who studies the scriptures knows that the Holy Spirit DOES SOMETHING before any man, woman, boy or girl can make a choice. We are arguing over exactly what the Holy Spirit does in an individual's life that causes that person to Choose Christ.
     
  12. William C

    William C
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    We all agree the Holy Spirit does SOMETHING before people choose.

    What has the Holy Spirit done?

    1. He inspired the apostles words and writings to bring us the scripture and the gospel
    2. He indwells those who believe compelling us to preach. For how will they preach unless they are sent?
    3. He give us the words to preach, through inspiration and guidance so that the world can hear the Word of the Lord.

    All of these acts are clearly spoken of and taught throughout scripture yet Calvinists don't believe this was enough to accomplish salvation for anyone. They add something. They say the Holy Spirit also works with a secret inward and irresistable calling to select individuals. This is unfounded in scripture. In fact, it makes the Holy Spirit's working through the preaching and spreading of the gospel seem trivial at best.
     
  13. Eladar

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    How could a fruit of the Spirit be self-control if will power were unnecessary?
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Topic Starter



    Christ or Will Power? Christ's Blood or
    Man's Ability?

    All four of your topics are spiritual verities. If man did not have ability [Acts 17:30-31] to believe and trust in Christ as a result of His general call, [John 3:16] He would have died in vain. Without the freedom of the will all sinners would remain in their unbelief. Without His blood there is no salvation.

    Without the human will and man's ability to respond there would be no responsibility or accountability warranted by Almighty God. He would not make men and women accountabe on judgment day, if they could not respond to the Lord's spiritual reconciliation.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Tutor,

    You explanation of the gifts of the Spirit is well taken.

    Calvinism is so full of holes it is a wonder it can float at all.

    Ray
     
  16. Hardsheller

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    How could a fruit of the Spirit be self-control if will power were unnecessary? </font>[/QUOTE]Whoever said will power was unnecessary? I don't know any Calvinists who believe this.

    All Christians are commanded to obey God's Word and that includes self-control and discipline all of which operate out of a person's will.

    Every Christian has a Free Will. We are able to not sin and we are able to sin. Calvinists believe that Christ in Salvation gives liberty to the enslaved will and makes it free.
     
  17. Eladar

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    Evidently Ken believes that self-control has nothing to do with salvation. According to the Bible, it is very much an aspect that we need to look at in order to determine if we are living by the Spirit.

    The "anti-works" people are extremists and are doing much to undermine the truth of the gospel.
     
  18. Frogman

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    According to what is the fruits of the Spirit; then it is you who confuses the truth. Man cannot have the fruit of something that he does not possess.

    Bro. dallas
     
  19. Eladar

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    Frogman,

    You must have a special gift to be able to determine who has the Spirit who does not have the Spirit. I guess God just needs to step aside and let you judge.
     
  20. Frogman

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    Just as I said, the church is more afraid of man than of God. Where did I say that I could discern the true nature of a man's heart? I said according to the fruits of the Spirit, and that unregenerated man must have that Spirit in him prior to being able to bring forth that fruit. Is a Walnut tree able to become an Oak?

    Brother I deject confusion in the doctrine of the church, that is all. Let all men judge themselves as Paul, but when man falls from the life of Christ and walks again according to the flesh and refuses to repent when he is approached Biblically, then the Word of God has instructed his people, whether we follow this or not will show where our own hearts are found. It is society and not God that has made truth relevant and tries to prove there is no truth; it is society not God that has said sin is relevant, that there is no sin unless a person's conscience is troubled by their personal sin. The Bible does not back away from declaring sin as sin; if I wish to serve God, then I must not back away from this either, else I cease from serving God and begin to serve the men around me and my self. Which do you imagine pleases God, for me to remain his servant or keep the peace when his people begin on the road to error?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     

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