Christ payment was for all mankind

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Jul 13, 2015.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Notice John says Christ is the Propitiation that is satisfaction for our sin. Not for ours only but for the whole world.

    Then Paul states God is not imputing the trespass of the world, but reconciling the world unto Himself.

    Therefore what sends a person to the Lake of Fire?

    The Propitiation of appeasement of God for all mankind has occurred by the blood of Christ. Their trespasses are not imputed that is counted against them so what causes them to end up in the Lake of Fire?

    Jesus said it is unbelief.

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 20 again

    Those not written in the book of life. We see this book in two other places in Revelation.

    Then those who will be in the New Jerusalem are seen in

    So how does one have their name entered into the Lamb's book of Life?

    By Faith in the savior which is accepting His Propitiatory payment for them, to reject is to be separated from God forever that is the Second Death.
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    In 1 John 2:2 we see that Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. The verse does not say Christ propitiated the whole world. It is only when an individual is transferred into Christ by God alone, does the person receive the reconciliation provided by His death.

    In 2 Corinthians 5:19 we see that God is reconciling the world to Himself. Since we receive the reconciliation when God puts us in Christ, we must conclude God is reconciling the world (all of mankind) one sinner at a time. Thus when Jesus saves an individual, that reconciles the world, to a small degree, one out of billions. And only when someone is transferred into Christ are their sins taken away.

    John 3:18 teaches we start out condemned, because as conceived, we do not believe in Christ. Only after we grow in maturity to where we can trust in Christ, hear and accept the gospel, and God credits our faith as righteousness are we set free from our condemnation.

    Now the Lamb's book of life has names written in it from or since or after the foundation of the world. So the time for writing names started in the creation week (and not before creation) and extends through time to the last day. Thus names are being written into the book today. Because of translation difficulty at Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 clearly shows when the names are written, i.e. from or since the foundation of the world.
     
  3. salzer mtn

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    One church I attended several years ago for a short time believed every ones names that ever lived and ever will live are in the book of life but as they die un saved, God takes their names out.
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    Yes, I believe I have read commentaries to that effect. However, if you just read the text, Jesus is promising not to erase names. Therefore the controlling action is to enter the names of those saved. Similar to the promise of those given to Christ, Jesus has promised not to cast out.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    So God is not propitiated in respect of the sins of unbelievers.
    Therefore Christ is not the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
    Therefore the Bible isn't true?
    Or are you maybe interpreting 'the whole world' wrongly?

    Also, check out the Greek of this verse. It doesn't matter which text you use. You will find something interesting.
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Hi Martin, why post misrepresentations of my position. Why not address my actual position. Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. This does not mean He has propitiated the whole world.

    By the numbers, once again,
    1) Only those individuals that God transfers into Christ are propitiated, saved, their sin burden set aside.
    2) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, anyone set apart in Christ is propitiated, but anyone not set apart in Christ is not propitiated.
    3) The Bible is true, but your conflation of propitiation and propitiated is not true. 1 John 2:2 does not read Christ has propitiated the whole world.
    4) You are interpreting "the whole world" wrongly as it actually refers to all mankind.
    5) I know nothing of Greek, so you will have to explain what you see as "interesting."
     
  7. wpe3bql

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    I didn't know that all the entries in God's Book of Life were written in pencil!

    According to the church that salzer mtn visited it seems that this church may believe that you have to work in order to keep your everlasting life.

    Apparently that church doesn't know what John 3:15-18,36 & 6:39,47,64 or Philippians 1:6 or I John 5:12 have to say about Who it is who keeps a truly born-again believer's eternal life secure.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The Jewish view was that salvation was of and for the Jews only. That is why it took a persecution against the church at Jerusalem, three repeated visions to Peter to even get him to come to a Gentile house. That is why we have Acts 15 in the Bible.

    John is writing to jewish Christians with the same mentality. The terms "whole world" and "world" mean ALL men without distinction of race, gender or class not all men without exception. The benefits of the atonement have some application to the non-elect as it provides temporal salvation and temporal benefits for the sake of the elect who come from them and who are among them.

    Finally, UNBELIEF is a sin, and if Christ died for ALL SINS for ALL mankind without exception than none can go to hell due to unbelief IF Christ paid for that sin. Jesus clearly states that all man without exception come into this world in a state of unbelief and condemnation (Jn. 3:17-18).
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I was not addressing you, but the O.P. I'm addressing you now.
    The Greek words translated 'propitiation' are hilasterion (Rom. 3:25) and hilasmos (1 John 2:2; 4:10). Neither of them mean 'means of salvation.' That is not the meaning of 'propitiation' in English, let alone Greek.

    This is dreadful! You have no idea what 'propitiation' means. It is not humans that need to be propitiated, but God. God is the wronged or outraged party; sinners (that is, all of us) are the offending party, and Christ is the Mediator. His death is that which turns away God's wrath and satisfies His justice.
    'And on that cross, as Jesus died,
    The wrath of God was satisfied.

    Now God is propitiated by the death of Christ, but towards whom? If it is towards every person in the entire world, then everyone is saved qed.
    Christ has certainly not propitiated the whole world; He has propitiated God.
    Hmm. Here is A.W. Pink on the word kosmos.

    That has become very clear. I'll try again. Have you read 1 John 2:2 in various English translations? Read it in the NIV or ESV; then in the KJV or NASB, and finally in the NKJV. Do you notice anything interesting?

    I don't at all believe that a knowledge of Greek is necessary to contribute on a discussion board, but I would expect someone who is proposing with great confidence a system of theology which is different to anything seen before to have taken the trouble to learn something of the original language.
     
    #9 Martin Marprelate, Aug 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2015
  10. SovereignGrace

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    Beautiful. Simply beautiful. :thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    Invalid comment ! No scripture ever says that !
     
  12. wpe3bql

    wpe3bql
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    The effectual limit of Christ's blood's payment is clearly stated in Acts 13:48b:

    "[A]ll who were appointed to eternal life became believers."

    If God Himself hasn't appointed that individual before time began, that person is not going to believe the Gospel because a spiritually dead person simply can't, by himself--apart from the HS taking the initiative of convicting him-/herself of the need of receiving Christ as his/her personal Savior into his/her own heart and soul (See Ephesians 2:1-9).

    Any other notion that doesn't fit this concept that's clearly detailed throughout the NT is plainly a false concept that can't be supported by the NT--be it in either the koine NT Greek or English.
     
  13. SovereignGrace

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    *****Baptist DEBATE Forums (Baptist Only)*****
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    You referenced 1 John 2:2, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    So Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Christ is the means of salvation, thus Propitiation=Christ=means of salvation.

    Well one of us certainly has no idea. But to attack an opponents credibility and knowledge rather than his or her position is a logical fallacy. And it does seem dreadful to discuss the meaning of Christ being the propitiation for our sins using logical fallacies.

    If anyone believes Christ being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, means the whole world's sins have been propitiated, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

    By the numbers, once again,
    1) Only those individuals that God transfers into Christ are propitiated, saved, their sin burden set aside.
    2) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, anyone set apart in Christ is propitiated, but anyone not set apart in Christ is not propitiated.
    3) The Bible is true, but your conflation of propitiation and propitiated is not true. 1 John 2:2 does not read Christ has propitiated the whole world.
    4) You are interpreting "the whole world" wrongly as it actually refers to all mankind.
    5) Again you refuse to tell us what you think is interesting.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Before we even think about studying hilasterion and the related words hilaskomai and hilasmos, we must address the three cornerstone words of salvation - propitiation, the means of salvation, redemption, the act of salvation, and reconciliation, the result of salvation. Our word study below enters into the arena of the means of salvation, which is Jesus Christ.

    Hilasterion

    Our best understanding is that hilasterion referred to the lid of the ark of the covenant, which was sprinkled with blood, and thus referred to as the mercy seat. Articles on its meaning are filled with classic words like expiation, atonement, and propitiation, all of which convey almost nothing to the modern reader. In a nutshell, under the Old Covenant, the blood of animals was sprinkled on the hilasterion on the day of atonement to provide temporary reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin. Under the New Covenant, Jesus, covered with His precious blood, has become our "hilasterion" (and our blood sin offering) as the means of everlasting reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin.

    Three related Greek words (Hilasterion and Hilasmos-nouns and Hilaskomai -verb) appear 6 times in the New Testament, Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 ; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10, Luke 18:13, and Hebrews 2:17. If we look at several translations we find the words translated as (1) propitiatory sacrifice; (2) propitiation; (3) mercy seat; (4) atonement and (5) atoning sacrifice for the nouns; with the verb being translated as (1) have mercy; (2) be merciful; (3) turn your wrath; and (4) make propitiation.

    In short the verb refers to the act of having mercy and the noun to the means of having mercy. Therefore hilasterion should be understood as the means of obtaining mercy , i.e the propitiatory shelter.







    .

    .
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    You still haven't told me what you found when you looked at 1 John 2:2 in various translations. Let me know when you've done that.
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    Christ payment was for all mankind... REALLY!... Well if that is so Hell only exist for the devil and his angels... If Christ paid the payment for ALL MANKIND THEN ALL MANKIND IS SAVED!... The Father according to the scriptures gave those the Father had chosen according to his love and mercy to his Son Jesus Christ to save. Now Adams transgression and sin was for ALL MANKIND... There is none righteous no not one FOR ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God... Unfortunately this follows under the doctrine of Election and there are many post in the C/A forum past and I'm sure given time SBM will issue a rebuttal... Brother Glen
     
  18. HankD

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    According to human logic that would appear to be true. But God's logic is not man's logic.

    There is another way to view the 1 John passage.

    First look at this passage

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Even those who have secretly brought in damnable heresies and are destined for destruction have been "bought" (Grk. agarazo) by the Lord.

    Then this passage:

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Jesus bought the entire human race including the "wicked". We are all His to do with whatsoever He pleases, to have mercy on whom He will and otherwise.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


    HankD
     
  19. JohnDBaptiste

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    Jesus paid the price for all sins of all mankind. But like your credit card you receive in the mail it must be activated to actually work. Belief in Jesus is what makes salvation activated on a case by case basis.

    John 3:16–18 (AV)
    16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  20. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Let's try the interlinear Greek to English:

    And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but about whole of the system (world) Kocmoy, Kosmou
    Kosmou Strong’s 2889[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

    1. [FONT=&quot]an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government [/FONT]
    2. [FONT=&quot]ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3: [/FONT]
    3. [FONT=&quot]the world, the universe [/FONT]
    4. [FONT=&quot]the circle of the earth, the earth [/FONT]
    5. [FONT=&quot]the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family [/FONT]
    6. [FONT=&quot]the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ [/FONT]
    7. [FONT=&quot]world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly [/FONT]
      1. [FONT=&quot]the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ [/FONT]
    8. [FONT=&quot]any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort [/FONT]
      1. [FONT=&quot]the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) [/FONT]
      2. [FONT=&quot]of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19 [/FONT]
    Only two of these would fit: 5 & 6. So His Hilasmos that appeasement for sin was for the whole world, that is the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family, the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ.

    What condemns people to the Lake of Fire, unbelief, that is refusal to accept the appeasement price paid by Christ.
     
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