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Christ was Arminian?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    In fact I DID respond to that. I SHOWED in the Arminian scenario that God does NOT say "I COULD have if I CARED to" as Calvinist insists that He must say. I SHOWED that in the Arminian scenario "God ENABLES BOTH" to choose. And when that wave of mercy is rejected HE COMES BACK AGAIN - to BOTH. God's response in the Arminian scenario is "I CARED - for BOTH of you even MORE than you do".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Obviously we both know that the CONTRAST of the scenarios was to provide a framework for SHOWING what Calvinism "EXPECTS of God" vs what Arminian "EXPECTS" in this "razor sharp CONTRAST scenario".

    The ubiquitous proofs of what Arminianism EXPECTS have been given in triplicate on these forums. As a small example Luke 7 shows MULTIPLE methods and effort REACHING out to those that "REJECTED God' Purpose for themselves".

    John 1 shows that "CHRIST CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT".

    Rev 3 shows Christ STANDING at the door and KNOCKING WITHOUT qualification as to WHOSE door it is.

    THe list is endless. And we both know it.

    In fact YOUR QUOTE is now the poster child for that Calvinist Scenario. It is using your OWN confession as to what the Calvinist expectation is. Read it again.

    We both know that Calvinism expects EXACTLY what the scenario for Calvinism shows.

    The "Scenario" is not a list of proofs - it merely SHOWS what each side "expects". The volumes of posts on "DRAWING ALL MANKIND" have demonstrated CLEARLY the point.

    Pretending that the topic has not been posted does not support your argument.

    Your position requires you to CHARGE GOD with being "uncaring" with His OWN two children - Adam and Eve. This has already been shown to be unsupportable. You simply ignore that and go on.

    Your view does not work starting in Genesis 2-3 BEFORE the fall. Your case ends before it ever starts.


    quote: Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    IN fact we both KNOW that you DO believe that the "ALL MANKIND" that are DRAWN in John 12:32 ARE also saved. Why pretend we don't both know that you think/and-say that very thing??
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On the contrary - I am in harmony with God's Word on this point and you are in the unneasy position of having to claim "The WHOLE WORLD will be SAVED" based on your redefitions on John 12:32.


    quote:Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your illustration was a faulty Calvinist one. It needed correction so that it would accurately show the Gospel case in which Christ ENABLES what deparavity DISABLES regarding the choice for LIFE - with forcing the will.

    I adjusted the illustration to accurately reflect the Word of God. You are free to propose any illustration that makes your point.

    Yes, I SAID that God ENABLES and CALLS so that ALL are ENABLED to accept - they merely CHOOSE to do so.

    You attempted to say that MY claim was the SAME as a parent CALLING an infant to a dinner that the infant STILL CAN NOT accept. Basically you took your OWN assumptions and placed them into your OWN illustration claiming that your illustration FIT what I was claiming.

    Either you just weren't following the point OR you meant to say that your illustration was how YOU view God.

    I included the DRAWING of God - even YOU do not deny that that DRAWING ENABLES the sinner to come.

    Why keep circling back as IF you don't believe that?? How does that make your case?


     
    #241 BobRyan, Apr 25, 2003
  2. William C

    William C New Member

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    Galatians 3:2 "Recieved ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the HEARING of faith"

    Faith is generated by the HEARING of the WORD OF GOD.

    James 1:18 "Of his own will begat He us with the WORD of truth"

    1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD of God, which liveth and abideth forever"</font>[/QUOTE]     I agree with what you have said hear. Faith does come by the Word of God or the "Word of Truth." Which is the gospel of salvation.

    Eph. 1:13 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation--in Him when you believed--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

    Notice that the "word of truth" is the gospel message. And also notice that they believed before they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes after one has faith.

    I don't know how you believe this as a Calvinist? Don't you believe that number of people being saved today is the number of people that God elected to be saved today? How would the manner in which the preacher's preach today change that?


    I see this a little differently, though I agree with the concept. I believe the Holy Spirit's work is in the preaching and the bringing of the Word. The Holy Spirit indwells the heart of a believer and inspires him to speaks the Word of Truth, therefore that Word is powerful and effective, piercing hearts and leading to conviction. I believe the power is in the spoken words, if the words have been given by God through His Spirit.

    Some resist the Words of man who speak by the Holy Spirit's power, thus they are resisting the Holy Spirit himself. (Acts 7:51)

    So, I agree that there are 2 agents at work:

    1. The Word
    2. The Spirit

    But, I don't separate the two in the manner you have. I believe the Word is brought through chosen men by the Spirit, thus there is power in the Word. The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. Why? Because the gospel was given to man by the Spirit. There is its power.

    You seem to think that the gospel itself is not powerful enough to lead one to salvation, but that the Holy Spirit has to do yet another internal work before the powerful Spirit sent message can have effect. I don't see that concept supported in the text.

    I agree and He does that through the gospel message not through some independant additional internal working to a select few as you seem to suggest.

    I agree. The Holy Spirit's power is in the words of the gospel itself, because the gospel is from the Spirit. That's why people are saved where it is preached.

    I didn't say that, the Bible does:

    Gal. 3:14
    The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Acts 19
    1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" "No," they told him, "we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 "Then with what baptism were you baptized?" he asked them. "With John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them

    John 7
    31 However, many from the crowd believed in Him and said, "When the Messiah comes, He won't perform more signs than this man has done, will He?" 32 The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering these things about Him, so the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple police to arrest Him. 33 Therefore Jesus said, "I am only with you for a short time. Then I'm going to the One who sent Me. 34 You will look for Me, and you will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come." 35 Then the Jews said to one another, "Where does He intend to go so we won't find Him? He doesn't intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks, does He? 36 What is this remark He made: 'You will look for Me, and you will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come'?" 37 On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! 38 The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him." 39 He said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been received, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Of course our faith is increased and strengthened once the Spirit indwells us. But as you can clearly see from the verses above, the Spirit only indwells those who have some measure of faith.

    This verse is just talking about a system of belief. It's saying: would the Spirit within you teach you a new Faith or system of belief different from what the Spirit has taught us through the apostles.

    I agree. How would we believe in that which we have not heard? And how would we hear without a preacher? And how will they preach unless they are sent?

    Who sent them? God, by the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He is the source alright!

    Yes, the gospel, which was brought to both Jews and Gentiles by the Holy Spirit, give rebirth to all who believe. It's that simple.

    Being hardened does not necessarily mean a man can't be saved.

    Rom. 11: 13b: I magnify my ministry, if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them.

    Hardening was a temporary condition of the Jews for the purpose of ingrafting the Gentiles which would provoke the hardened Jews to jealous so that they too may be saved. You misapply the intent of this passage.

    Preaching the Word of God is the work of the Holy Spirit! Don't separate them like this, the scripture doesn't.

    I disagree with your post, but it was quite clear and well stated. I appreciate your demeanor in your response in that you don't talk down to me as if you have all knowledge and I am just a poor dumb Arminian who doesn't know the Bible. I get sick of that kind of attitude really quickly.

    Thanks for not being like that. [​IMG]
     
    #242 William C, Apr 28, 2003
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Bob,
    I think you have outdone yourself. Even by your standards, this doesn’t make much sense to me. I really have no clue what you talking about in most of it.
    The foolishness of your trying to say what each expects is evident. Why would you do that? Why not just accept what Scripture says rather than pull out this unbiblical illustration which doesn’t help you?

    As I say, your conception of God is no better because you have a God who could have saved that little girl but chose not to. Instead, he blames this weak and helpless little child for something that he could have changed. That is a fact in your “Expectation.” You have arranged the expectations in such as way that the true nature of your side is not shown, and that is a problem

    So what? That is not the point. Assuming that is salvation (which is not entirely concrete), it doesn’t say whose door it is. Which makes your assumption that he is knocking on everyone’s door a fallacious assumption. But you missed that little bit of thought by only presenting one side, as you did above.

    Neither of us “know” that. I know it is not true. I know you have made it up. Your “Knowledge” is the product of your mind rather than of Scripture.
    So where is this evidence that God draws all men without exception?
    I Must again ask if you are coherent? YOU are the one who brought up the protection and I merely pointed out that your “protection” did not work. It seems like you are responding without reading or thinking what you are saying.

     
    #243 Pastor Larry, Apr 28, 2003
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Obviously we both know that the CONTRAST of the scenarios was to provide a framework for SHOWING what Calvinism "EXPECTS of God" vs what Arminian "EXPECTS" in this "razor sharp CONTRAST scenario".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Because it has proved to be a devastating comparison for which the Calvinist members have yet to form a coherent response. Even your own posts on this subject - simply serve to MAKE the case I claimed Calvinism was proposing - further digging the hole deaper for the Calvinist problem.

    In fact - a quote from you is now part of that illustration.


    Since you are attempting to explain the Arminian scenario - why not pay attention to the details it supplied?.

    Here they are again - for focus.
    ==============================

    Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.

    (Note: There is a God, there will be a day of judgment, not everyone is going to heaven. So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).

    Notice that INSTEAD of the Calvinist god that says "I did not even CARE for her". The Arminian God says "I CARED FOR BOTH" and "I DIED FOR BOTH" and "I DREW BOTH" and "I CAME BACK AGAIN for BOTH after being turned away by BOTH".

    But as "predicted" in the scenario above - the Calvinist response will sometimes be "How Awfull!".

    And see Pastor Larry?


    Only deep devotion to Calvinism would lead to that view of "loving Both".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #244 BobRyan, Apr 28, 2003
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote: Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rev 3 shows Christ STANDING at the door and KNOCKING WITHOUT qualification as to WHOSE door it is.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As stated above "it is UNqualified" INSTEAD of highly qualified "I Stand at the door of ONLY those FEW in Matt 7 that I arbitrarily select".

    Calvinism "needs" the qualified form.


    quote:Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We both know that Calvinism expects EXACTLY what the scenario for Calvinism shows.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you also know that you are not actually responding to the point by SHOWING what part of the Calvinist response you differ with. (You know, the Calvinist response IN the scenario that actually INCLUDES your OWN quote? ) This could not BE any easier if you really have a point to make about the Calvinist response.


    quote:Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your position requires you to CHArGE GOD with being "uncaring" with His OWN two children - Adam and Eve. This has already been shown to be unsupportable. You simply ignore that and go on.
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    I said God IS protecting His people- you charged that God is NOT since God allowed sinless ADAM to CHOOSE.

    Back on track.

    quote: Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On the contrary - I am in harmony with God's Word on this point.

    You are in the unneasy position of having to claim "The WHOLE WORLD will be SAVED" based on your redefitions on John 12:32.

    Good then Christ is drawing "ALL" - the unqualified ALL as in "ALL have SINNED" unqualified - ALL mankind.

    God so loved the WORLD.

    Christ died for our sins and not OUR sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD.

    No redefintion needed.

    And so back to the point again - ARE you saying the "WHOLE WORLD" is saved?

    Basically in your response - you did not actually answer any of the questions posed for Calvinism. Is that because you don't have an answer for them or are you waiting for a better time to respond?

    You seem to rely heavily on "forgetting" the context of the questions and restating them in a way that requires that we post the questions "again".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #245 BobRyan, Apr 29, 2003
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Consider the following conversation.

    You would respond by saying, You are lying. You don't know what you are talking about.

    And that is my response to your scenario. It is not devastating. It is not even true, as evidenced by the fact that you do not have one Scripture included in it. You made up an emotional story to pull emotions, not to sway the intellect by legitimate means. Your story is like mine, completely made up.

    In the scenario you put, God has the power to effectively woo and win the heart of that little girl, but he refused. He allowed her to go to hell when he knew better. Consider a parent who sees a two year old playing in the street and stands on teh porch and cries and begs and pleads for that child to come back. You would consider that a bad parent. And you would tell that parent to go out and get that child and pick it up and bring it back. That is in fact what God did. He saw his children in danger and rather than callously calling from the porch as your God does, he went out and picked them up and brought them back.

    Your arminian view of the future is based on your wish for how things should be, rather than on the truth that God reveals to us.

    Nope ... because there is no theology in it.


    I have no deep devotion to Calvinism. My deep devotion is to the Word of God and that is where we learn about these things.
     
    #246 Pastor Larry, Apr 29, 2003
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    No it doesn't. :( You are the one who qualifies it and reads into it. I don't.


    The point that you are missing Bob is that you made something up and called it the Calvinist response. You are wrong. That is all that can be said. You have made it up. What else can I say?? Take great pains to refute somethign that is false?? Why ?? You make stuff up and then expect us to treat it like Scripture. I refuse.


    And my response was, What kind of protection allows people to die? You are the one who misunderstood here. The kind of protection you believe in is no protection at all.

    That is not what the text says Bob. The text is in the story of Jews and Greeks, where Jews have had access to Christ and now the Greeks are asking for it. Christ is essentially saying, "Not yet, but soon." It is a reference to all people without distinction, not all people without exception.

    I agree

    You changed the text. The text said that Christ made propitiation not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. Propitiation is actual satisfaction, not potential satisfaction. This verse does not support you.

    I agree; you just have to define it right, which you did not do.

    Not as in universalism. That is what you position leads to from the verse you quote above as well as your erroneous notion of drawing. I reject that beacuse Scripture does.

    What questions were posed for Calvinism that did not depend on your made up story that springs from your misunderstanding rather than from Scripture?

    Typically, I boil the question down to the point rather than deal with all the blabber that accompanies them. Your illustration is way off base and has no basis in reality. Scripture never presents such a picture; Calvinism never paints such a picture. Whatever enemy you are arguing against, it is not biblical calvinism. It is something of your own creation. I urge you to deal in actual facts rather than making stuff up.
     
    #247 Pastor Larry, Apr 29, 2003
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again Pastor Larry.

    To make the EQUIVALENT case - as the DEVASTATING one I have made you "need the salient points" in a quote FROM ME - JUST as I have FROM YOU.

    Your salient points above revovle around "a gun" and cold-blooded-murder and women and children. IF you got me to "ENDORSE" that PRACTICE in principle then (and only then)your "ILLUSTRATION" would be truly "DEVASTATING" because you could SHOW my quotes IN your illustration. (As I have done with YOUR quotes).

    Get it Larry?

    You really CAN come up with "some case" to use in your favor BUT you must MATCH the KEY SALIENT points in the illusration with those SAME KEY points that I MAKE in my arguments. in that way you would be objectively SHOWING my error using a devastatingly effective illustration that relied on MY OWN quotes.

    And of course - I (like the Calvinists here) would complain profusely about the posting of that illustration WITHOUT actually ADDRESSING the KEY salient points OF your illustration OR ADDRESSING MY OWN QUOTE that you include in it.

    Now lets just sit back and consider that for a moment Pastor Larry. Imagine that you really had such an illustration. You have to admit - you would SAVE it off and post it when the topic came up to see if I had finally had time to respond to the actual details of the argument.

    And each time I failed to address them - you would see "a little more victory" in demonstrating that your position is the right one - in an objective way that EVEN an Arminian could not refute. Trust me - you would enjoy it.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
    #248 BobRyan, Apr 29, 2003
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But then in a serious moment Pastor Larry posts --

    Indeed He does AND He has the POWER to break the will of all mankind and FORCE them to do as He pleases.

    BUT INSTEAD - God uses the combination of LOVE AND POWER - MERCY and JUSTICE to draw BOTH the parent AND the child.

    And when BOTH the parent and the child refuse HIM - HE DRAWS THEM AGAIN - with wave after wave of mercy. But in the end - He refuses to whack them in the head like a puppet on a string. Having ENABLED BOTH of them to ACCEPT - and having DRAWN BOTH of them He lovingly accepts their CHOICE that He SOVEREIGNLY gives them.

    This is the "God is to blame for Adams fall" because God "ALLOWED Adam to fall though God KNEW better". By injecting the Calvinist principle that ALL outcomes are "Because God knew better" into the Arminian scenario - you fail to refute the Arminian argument.

    Notice that in the CALVINIST scenario I provide the devastating case against Calvinism by KEEPING to Calvinist principles.

    In Calvinism IF God is "Powerful ENOUGH" to FORCE you then He does. CALVINISM views the Arminian scenario as a failure by injecting Calvinisms rule - "The STRONG FORCE THEIR WAY at all costs to the weak" into the scenario.

    But if that Parent FORCE the will by LOCKING the child in the house UNTIL that child was an adult we would charge the parent with "cruelty". SIMPLY arguing that "AS LONG AS I AM POWERFUL I will FORCE MY WAY" does not accomplish the "greater good". God was ALWAYS powerful "ENOUGH" to lock the child in the house ALL of its life until it was an adult. But God refused to do so. While He is not sending it out into the street, but in fact WALKING WITH THE CHILD and HOlDING the child's hand - AT SOME point EVEN a parent can not hang on to the hand for 21 years without being "cruel".

    This is another Calvinist fallacy. Calvinists often wish the scripture ONLY provided support for their doctrines and often pretend that the case for Arminians is ONLY made from "Wishes" AT THE SAME TIME the Calvinists must "water down" GOD SO LOVED the WORLD. And "NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH". AND "THEY REJECTED God's PURPOSE FOR THEM". and "God Sent His Son to BE the Savior of the WORLD". (and on and on it goes).

    But IF it really were the SIMPLE case of "NOTHING but wishes for Arminians" and "NOTHING in God's Word but Calvinist support" then your summary above would be believable.

    But as it is now .... who is kidding who?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #249 BobRyan, Apr 29, 2003
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1)No wonder you always come across as being stuck on yourself. :rolleyes: You probably think that the whole world of Calvinist Christians are sounding the retreat at the words of Bob Ryan - the Seventh-Day Adventist answer to the Reformed Church of John Calvin - only in your mind, Bob. [​IMG]

    2)If you are honest, Bob, you will admit that there are difficult verses to deal with for those who teach salvation by free will, just as I admit that there are difficult verses to deal with for those of us who teach salvation by free grace.
     
    #250 KenH, Apr 29, 2003
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    ***Double Post*** [​IMG]
     
    #251 KenH, Apr 29, 2003
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A statement requiring very clear and consistent "lack" of Arminian text support in scripture. Which "obviously" is a problem.

    To which we get Ken's response that it is only because I am "Bob" that I notice that "problem".
    [​IMG]
    Ken - your response was compelling and thorough in exploring the details of the problem. [​IMG] [​IMG] Thanks.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #252 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2003
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Bob,

    This discussion will go no farther because I won't accept your flawed premise. YOu have made up your illustration based on your mind and desire, not on Scripture. You have not used "calvinist" principles in it. UNtil you realize that and properly represent what your opponent really believes, you will continue to bark up the wrong tree.

    You are wrong in your characterization of Scripture and what we believe. When you decide to give up this charade, perhaps there will be an opportunity for us to talk again. Until then, I have better things to do.
     
    #253 Pastor Larry, Apr 30, 2003
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    coming up with a razor sharp illustration that RELIES on the salient points of the OPPOSITION to make its case AND to show the contrast in living color (as the FUTURE scenarios did) "looks easy" - but as you see in the point made above - it is harder than it looks.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #254 BobRyan, May 1, 2003
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    It sure is, Bob. So why don't you quit trying? It hard watching a friend continue to fail time and again. [​IMG]
     
    #255 KenH, May 1, 2003
  16. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Bob, perhaps you have become guilty of selective citing of Scripture to attempt a "proof."

    And perhaps you have made a logical error of judging Jesus to be an Arminian on the basis of a hasty generalization from so little "evidence" which does not support your induction.

    God Bless, good brother.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
    #256 rufus, May 2, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt 18 Christ teaches "Forgiveness REVOKED" showing FREE WILL AFTER accepting Salvation can lead to the loss of forgiveness.

    In Luke 8:4-14 Christ shows those who are DEAD lifeless - SPRING to life and then describes that life as being CHOKED OUT - again showing CHOICE after accepting salvation.

    In John 12:32 Christ shows that He is DRAWING ALL MANKIND unto Himself - not just "The arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7".

    In Matt 11 Christ shows that His invitation is to ALL - "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and burdened down".

    In John 6 Christ says that His FLESH given was GIVEN on behalf of the "WORLD".

    In John 3:16 Christ argues that "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD".

    This review of the Arminian statements of Christ -- can go on and on and on ..

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #257 BobRyan, May 2, 2003
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And as you well know, the Calvinist statements of Christ -- can go on and on and on...

    But Jesus Christ is neither Arminian nor Calvinist nor other man concocted name - HE IS GOD.
     
    #258 KenH, May 2, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rufus,

    You asked for the "proof" and I showed the texts that show IN Christ teaching - HIS OWN views that so directly refute Calvinism.

    And then --- no response Rufus?

    I thought you were good for another round on that one. Lets explore those texts - eh?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #259 BobRyan, May 9, 2003
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