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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Oct 3, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.

    Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

    How do you get around that?

    You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace". Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

    So then the question remains -

    Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

    How do you get around that?

    And how do you get around the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" claim of Christ?

    And the Romans 11 statement that those who "Stand only by their faith" are to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

    Is this where you claim the Bible re-invents sanctification as being the case of the lost seeking justification - since the saved saints can be at risk in this way?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It took no effort at all, Jesus made it very clear - "I NEVER KNEW YOU". It doesn't get any clearer than that. Every Christian KNOWS Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ KNOWS them (John 10).

    No therefore at all. It is you who attempted to escape from my question on Galatians 5 by referencing Matt 7. My question - "Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me???" . At which you attempted to escape the question by running to other scriptures, Matt 7 being one of them, which was easily proven that these in Matt 7 were NEVER saved.

    It does not remain, Matt 7 has been disproven as a reference for a "Fallen from Grace" supporter of Galatians 5. Those spoken of in Matt 7 have not known Grace. What remains is my question to you unanswered -

    Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

    Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone as these false teachers proclaimed.

    Question is, does it include you BobRyan? Are you justified by Grace Alone BobRyan? Or are you a "whosoever"?
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rabbit trail?

    My argument has never been that unless Steaver is severed from Christ and fallen from grace - then OSAS is valid or ... Gal 5:2-4 is not to be considered.

    We both knew that right?

    Not sure why you keep coming back with "yes but I have not fallen from Grace" as if this proves something in favor of ignoring this key Bible doctrine that there have indeed been those who have "fallen from Grace" and have been "Severed FROM Christ".

    So again - how does your defense of OSAS solve that problem other than your claim that you yourself have not fallen from Grace?

    This is the easy part - right??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Oh Bob, Bob, Bob, why the straw man? When did I ever say "yes but I have not fallen from Grace". Answer is - No where.

    Now you have created yourself quite a conundrum for yourself.

    Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

    Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone as these false teachers proclaimed.

    Question is, does it include you BobRyan? Are you justified by Grace Alone BobRyan? Or are you a "whosoever"?

    No more straw men, no ore rabbit trials, answer the question.
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The question -

    There is nothing to get around, because there is no such thing as............... "Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above. (i.e. Matt 7)

    It is NOT challenged from Matt 7, so NEXT question!
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The all-important "not" was missing in my post above. :)

    (You see? the question remains).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Answer: When addressing the Gal 5 "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" text so contrary to OSAS your response was that Gal 5 does not apply "to you"...


    Inexplicably this is all you provide for a way that OSAS might survive "Fallen from GRACE" and "SEVERED from Christ".

    As if a misdirection or sidestep will do the job. But all you have done is claim that you don't think you are severed from Christ as those were in Gal 5.

    However careful review of my argument never shows it to say "OSAS is not true and proof is that Steaver is severed from Christ the way that those in Gal 5:4 were".

    Surely we both see that by now.

    So... no more games??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Why don't you see? You brought up Matt 7, which has nothing to do with Gal 5. I need no exit for Gal 5. Who is the one dodging my question on what Gal 5 says??

    But we both know this right?? As I'm sure anyone watching can see.

    1) that it is contrary to OSAS is a presupposition on your part - so far unsupported by the text in question.

    2) I did and do claim it does not apply to me - still awaiting your answer as whether it applies to you?

    So me including the full context of the very text in question is inexplicable for you?? Do you wish to continue this cherry picking of words out of context or are you ready to deal with your problem?

    I believe it is BobRyan who is misdirecting "fallen from grace" away from "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

    Yes, Surely we both see this now...So no more games brother...answer my question which was asked several post ago now....

     
  10. evenifigoalone

    evenifigoalone Well-Known Member

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    East to West, by Casting Crowns:
     
  11. evenifigoalone

    evenifigoalone Well-Known Member

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    Once and for All, by Disciple:
     
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    My son likes Disciple, not my style of music though, it doesn't move my spirit.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You keep arguing that you are not one of those Severed from Christ.

    I keep pointing out that this statement about Gal 5:4 debunking OSAS by showing the existence of the very group OSAS says does not exist - those joined to Christ that are then SEVERED FROM Christ, and those under GRACE that are then "FALLEN FROM" Grace.

    You keep dancing around that one is if the OSAS problem is "solved" if we can just maintain that Steaver himself has not fallen from Grace.

    How "instructive" - :)

    So now - no more games? Please just respond to the point from Gal 5:4.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As already noted above - that is your use of Matt 7. Which leaves you with no place to go in the case of Gal 5:4 where they were joined to Christ and then SEVERED FROM Christ. Where they were under GRACE and then FALLEN FROM Grace.

    You can't use Matt 7 in Gal 5:4 - because you already admit that Matt 7 is only about those who were NEVER Joined to Christ, never Under Grace.

    The obvious question is thus "asked again".


    True - which leaves you no place to go in Gal 5:4 except to admit that OSAS has been fully debunked by scripture.

    Where we DO see the case of those who have been "SEVERED FROM Christ and FALLEN FROM Grace".

    How do you imagine that OSAS would survive such a devastating anti-OSAS text?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So let's try to make this very simple for the reader to understand. BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that.........

    'Any born-again Christian who believes they are justified by the law has become lost again'.

    Is this a fair and accurate statement of BobRyan's belief concerning Galatians 5:4??
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    here it is "again".

    =========================




    ----------------------------


    BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

    Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

    Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

    And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

    ---------------------------

    But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

    As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The reason I keep bringing you back to the context of the verse (justification by obeying the law) is to give you opportunity to either address the context of the text or keep repeating the same old presupposition about OSAS.

    Either way you will lose the argument. Surely everyone can see your dodging, and most certainly you know the conundrum my question places you in. Tis why you will not answer and deflect to your presupposition on OSAS.

    The context of Galatians 5:4 still remains unanswered by BobRyan.....
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The reason I keep reminding you that OSAS does not allow for one that is joined to Christ - change such that "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ" is that you keep claiming that OSAS is not challenged by the Bible -and yet Gal 5:4 clearly refutes your speculation in that regard.

    BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

    Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

    Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

    And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

    ---------------------------

    But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

    As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.

    The "context" is that those who were joined to Christ, and under Grace had become "SEVERED FROM" Christ and "Fallen FROM" Grace.

    It is nonsensical to argue that OSAS allows for this but "just for Christians that are inclined to become Jews" - as some might be imagining.

    OSAS makes no such "provision" for this taking place.

    OSAS falls at that point - and no amount of side stepping the point can solve the problem for OSAS.

    I think we can all see that by now.



    That is not true at all. In fact you yourself claim that you have no clue about my own views on it - repeatedly.

    I myself simply "imagine" that you are trying to argue that the Bible truth of Rev 14:12 is somehow "condemned" in Gal 5:4 but you don't want to come out and say it- so you keep asking me to help you with that.

    It is a diversion on your part that is not solving the problem for OSAS at all.

    Since you keep backing away from making your point - who knows??

    Your circular reasoning either leaves you with the wild claim that to accept the Gal 5:4 teaching that one CAN become "SEVERED FROM" Christ - is itself proof of being "severed from Christ" because to believe or teach such at hing is supposedly the great evil you think Paul is condemning. Which of course is a circular argument that has Paul condemning himself in Gal 5:4. (No wonder you are so anxious to avoid specifics there). Or you are trying to have the Gal 5:4 Paul - condemn the 1Cor 7:19 and Rev 14:12 parts of the Bible - supposing to your self that if the saints are "keeping the Commandments of God" then they must be evil.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #58 BobRyan, Oct 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2013
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Thank you! I believe you have answered my question for everyone, even in your attempt to avoid it.

    So what have we established?

    Anyone who points to Galatians 5:4 as support against justified by Faith Alone is claiming - 'Any born-again Christian who believes they are justified by the law has become lost again'.

    Thus, the very one who points to Galatians 5:4 as evidence against justified by Grace Alone through Faith Alone has condemned themselves for believing obedience to the law will justify them.

    But I'm pretty sure you knew if someone brought up the context of the verse it would be the end of your argument there - your not stupid - just a bit hard headed :love2:. And will you now abandon that verse for your argument?? Doubt it, not yet, your not ready to just let Jesus have all that glory - but I have hope for you :praying: I am confident - that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #60 BobRyan, Oct 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013
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