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Christian Magic

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    If the magic isn't real, then it's fake. There's no other choice.
    I don't know how to say this in a way that will come off as disrespectful, so my apologies in advance here. I've seen your numerous past comments, and you seem to be paranoid on the topic, looking for demons under every rock. There is legitimate demonology (the calling of Satan and demons), but much of what people ascribe to it is fake. There's no such thing as supernatiral magic spells, magic potions, etc. There's no such thing as psycic powers. There's no such thing as a supernatural yin and yang. There's no such thing as a supernatural karma. It's all contrived. People who claim to have done these things are either liars or are mistaken. Yes, scripture admonishes the practicing of sorcery, but it does not claim it to be real. In fact, Revelation referrs to those who claim to practice it as practioners of falsehood.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    It's not fake in the sense that people are faking it (at least those into it seriously). They think it's real. Of course, they do not have the power they claim; the "power" is using them.

    In fact, John, I tell people we are not to fear Satan and I refute those Christians who see demons under every bush, as you put it. This accusation is totally false. As you know, my ministry deals with this area. This is a ministry the Lord called me to and has been confirmed over and over through the numerous doors he has opened for me, through the ways people contact me for info and advice (both believers and non-believers) and through the many ways I've been able to have things published, etc. I did not seek any of these. I was involved in occult practices for many years and have been dealing in this area through my ministry for a total of about 30 years. There are demonic powers in the occult that people contact and become affected by. This does not mean they can do what they claim or think they can do; but there is a very real danger and power there. It is ultimately destructive, of course.
     
    #22 Marcia, Nov 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2009
  3. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    Magic? It's fine - remember that Jesus entertained
    magi as a young child...
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Real means it exists, and fake means it doesn't. Many people claim to wield occultic powers, but there is no such thing. Sure, they think it's real, but it's not. No such thing as communicating with the dead, no such thing as chi, no such thing as fortune telling, nothing supernatural about palm reading, tarot cards, or ouija boards.
    We're in agreement there. For example, there's no power in a ouija board, but I won't have one in my house, because the use of it is idolatrous and occultic. But if there were one in my house, there would be no power in the simple fact that it was there. People who claim that object have mystic powers (usually new agers and occultists) are quacks.
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I did have psychic "powers," but actually the information was coming from my guides (demons, although I did not think that was who they were). This is how most of the occult is when someone is involved - they do have demonic contact and guidance, which explains why the info is sometimes accurate. There are things I could not have naturally known that were very specific about my clients. All of my friends had these guides and all psychics, mediums, astrologers, tarot card readers, etc. have such guides (and acknowledge it). I was not a quack nor were they because we were not trying to con anyone - we believed what we were doing and were just as convinced as the clients. (There is a separate category of the storefront types who advertise - they are usually scam artists).

    I am glad you don't have a ouija board and your reasons are good. The Ouija board is how many channelers make their first contact with a demon (which they think is the person or being that they are channeling). This is how Jane Roberts of the Seth books (popular in the 70s and 80s) first encountered "Seth" whom she channeled thereafter. Her face would contort and she would not recall what had been said (her husband recorded it). I think she was actually being possessed - same with Edgar Cayce and thousands of others. The advice given this way is always anti-Christian and anti-biblical, although Jesus is often mentioned.
     
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Many years ago, I met and actually became friends with a man who claimed to have ESP. His autobiography outlined his journey from a young Baptist ministerial student at Bob Jones University, to his dabbling with voodoo during a mission trip to Haiti, to his discovery that he had psychic powers.

    He was ultimately rejected as an SBC missionary because he refused to renounce this involvement in the occult. He gave up any idea of the ministry.

    He wrote a book on gospel magic. But they are just tricks, illusions, sleight of hand, with legitimate gospel messages. I still have it.

    A few years ago, one of my co-workers disappeared into thin air. After a couple of days, another co-worker and I ran into David. My co-worker explained the situation and asked him, "got any vibes about it?"

    Without hesitation, David said, "Yeah, he's hit a slick spot in his life, has bugged out for a while. He's holed up in a hotel and is considering suicide. He'll show up in about ten days."

    Ten days to the day, my phone rang. My missing colleague was on the other end. After breathing a sign of relief, I asked him to come by and talk to me. He did and I asked him what happened. He told exactly the same story. He'd had some personal family difficulty, and gotten into his car and kept driving. He wound up in a hotel three hours away, had a gun, considered suicide, but obviously didn't follow through. His story and David's were identical.

    I believe David had ESP. I believe the source of his power was not God. But it wasn't fake and it wasn't a trick.

    I think we should pay attention to Marcia.
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    By the way, if you suggested to David that his ESP was occultic, he would deny it. He contended that everybody had what he called "the gift." All that was necessary was to cultivate it, which is what he did.

    Also, let me correct myself. The book "Beautiful Side of Evil" I mentioned earlier was written by Joanna Michaelson back in the 1980s. Not Dave Hunt. Thanks, Marcia for the PM correction. I knew that but was confused. Google Joanna Michaelson if you want to know her story.
     
    #27 Tom Butler, Nov 16, 2009
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  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Marcia,
    Do all of us have some connection to or ability in the ESP or spiritual world without realizing it? Another question that comes to my mind is someone who is saved, if they did have this before salvation, is it cut off because the Holy Spirit resides in us?

    I have never experienced such events, but, have talked to many, many people, some in government, that give very convincing stories about ghost sightings, UFO sightings, visions of the future that come true, etc. To me, lots of these people are totally sane and not given to wild tales. Even though I have never seen such a thing, or maybe experience is a better word, I cannot agree with other posters that say this is all fake.

    Is it true all I listed above has one common origin, demonic activity? Life in the universe is another issue than UFOs, but wondered what you thought.
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There's no such thing, and you had no such thing. James Randi (a magician once known as "The Amazing Randi" has for years had a 1 million dollar reward offerred to those who can demonstrate a "psycic" ability. No one has ever come forward. I likewise will offer $1000 to anyone who can provide proof of a so-called psychic ability. I will guarantee my $1000 is secure.
    That's true. The fact that we're even entertaining the notion that things like ESP or reasing the future might be true is an affront fo God.
     
    #29 Johnv, Nov 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2009
  10. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    I knew you were going to say that...
     
  11. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Okay, smartypants, for you, Rubato, I'll give you a dollar a year for the next 1000 years. :)
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Did you read what I wrote? I did have these "powers," but, as I explained, the information came from guides, who were demons. That's why I put the word "powers" in quotation marks. As I said, I am a recognized expert on this.

    Re Randi's offer - the reason no one comes forward is that people who have these "powers" cannot control them (unless they are channeling, which Randi would not really consider a 'power'). His offer does not prove anything at all. Randi is also an atheist, I believe He does not believe in anything supernatural. He would say that Jesus didn't perform miracles.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Yes, people can have this without realizing what it is. It does not necessarily go away after salvation -- I had to ask God to remove these "abilities." I think God wanted me to ask for several reasons.

    I had an experience with my guide after I was saved, the day I went forward to publicly proclaim my faith (it was about 3 or 4 months after I was saved). I write about it in my story here:
    http://christiananswersforthenewage.org/AboutCANA_SpiritualJourney.html

    My story is also recounted as Chapter 10 in a book by Thom S. Rainer, The Unexpected Journey (Zondervan), which is a book with 12 stories from people who came to Christ from various religious views, such as Buddhism, Unitarian, Mormon, Atheism etc. It's a very interesting book.

    As for sightings of ghosts, haunted houses, aliens, etc., I suggest a grid for that. The explanation is one of these:
    1. Imagination or delusion
    2. Hoax or falsehoo
    d
    3. Natural causes
    4. Demonic origin

    It is more likely to be #1-3, though #4 is certainly possible, and is more likely in cases in which the person has been involved in the occult/New Age, or is in a religion where there is spirit contact (Spiritualism, Voudou, etc.).
    In these cases, the experiences tend to increase.

    I see a lot of parallels between accounts of those who claim alien contact and/or abduction and encounters with the demonic (and I wrote about it briefly for a ministry Watchman Fellowship - I'll PM you the link).

     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Thanks for the time you spent on this post. I do want to side track a bit, about physical life elsewhere in the universe. To me, this is seperate and apart from UFOs and psychic ability, it is a purely physical issue. There have been threads where some claimed the Bible supports life here only on earth. I see no Biblical foundation for such a statement. All I know is that if it is out there, God created it. I tend to think with all the discoveries of other planets in other star systems, and water on some of our own moons, that there is life out there. If there is ever proof, it will not cause me to rethink on bit of my faith or beliefs.

    In your post on the other, I too believe it to be all demonic, aside from the crazies.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I tend to believe that there is no intelligent life on other planets. I think the vastness of space and the countless heavenly bodies reflect the vastness of God and that He cannot be contained.

    Do you want to start a thread on whether life exists beyond earth? If so, please do and let's not continue that topic here.
     
  16. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Sounds reasonable, just wanted to make the distinction. Anyway, I am going to read your articles.
     
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Marcia,
    Thank you for the links. I understand now much better where you are coming from on your posts, even if I disagree in certain areas. That article gave great insight into your background. You are also a gifted writer.
     
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