Christian Skate Night is Unconstitutional

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Salty, Jun 24, 2006.

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  1. Salty

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  2. Martin

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    Not

    Christian Skate Night Is Unconstitutional...not according to the United States Constitution. I no longer care what any lawyer or judge says about it.
     
  3. Magnetic Poles

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    I believe in a strict separation of church & state, but on the surface, this appears to be someone going overboard. As long as they are not discriminating and breaking laws that forbid religious discrimination, then I don't see the problem with a Christian group renting a facility for a skate night. Where private businesses DO run afoul of discrimination laws is in things like offering a discount if you show a church bulletin, as this gives preferential treatment to church attendees over non-attendees.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Quite frankly, as long as it is a private business which does not recieve tax money, I think they should be able to break any discrimination law they wish. Their money, their business, their rules. If they are, however, a government entity which takes government money, they should have to follow all of the government's rules.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. Magnetic Poles

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    Then you believe a private homebuilder should be able to discriminate against blacks? You think a private employer should be able to discriminate against Baptists? That is not equal protection under the law.
     
  6. Bro. James Reed

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    I agree.

    What they do has no effect on anything other than their own business. Whether they want to offer their facilities only to Christians, or offer it only to people who are not Christians, they should have a right to do so as private citizens running a private business.
     
  7. Bro. James Reed

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    Yes, again, private business.

    Of course, it's likely that the public would be outraged over such instances and the private companies would have little or no business. Let the people decide if they want to buy a house from racists or atheists. It is none of the government's business, again, provided that they are not receiving any assistance from the federal government. Then, and only then, should it become government business what a private employer is doing.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Yes I do, just as much as I think Baptist Churches have the right to discriminate against Homosexuals and non-Christians.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. Martin

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    Its Time For People To Grow Up

    ==Since, as I assume, the skating ring is a private business and not a federally operated skating rink the separation of church and state issue has no role to play here. The First Amendment of the United States promises all Americans the following things...

    1. "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise" (of religion)

    2. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech"

    Under both points the owners of the skating rink are safe. If they wish to play Christian music, rock music, rap music, country music, a mix, or oldies that is 100% up to them. The courts have no authority to tell the owners of a private business what they can or cannot play in their rink. If someone does not like the music they play they should not visit that skating rink...PERIOD.

    "Where private businesses DO run afoul of discrimination laws is in things like offering a discount if you show a church bulletin"

    That is unconstitutional (in its original sense). If I own a business and would like to give discounts to certain people nobody can force me to change my discount policy. If I want to give people who show a church bulletin (or a military id, or a coupon from a store, etc ) discount the government has NO consitutional authority to tell me to do otherwise. If someone does not like my policy they are free to go to some other business. For any government to attempt to tell a business owner who he/she can offer discounts to is wrong. If someone does not like the policies of a particular store they should go to a different store. I do.

    "this gives preferential treatment to church attendees over non-attendees"

    Excuse me while I wipe the tear from my eye...not. I am tired of these type of arguments, in fact I am sick and tired of these type of arguments. What kind of thin skinned, emotionally weak person is going to be offended because a skating rink will not give them a discount? Or any other business for that matter? Go to another business and get on with your life! For crying out loud!

    Let me give you an example. A local chinese restaurant I visit from time to time has a great big Budda statue right behind the counter. Have I complained that I am offended by that idol? No. Am I offended? No. Why not? Because it is their store and if they wish to put up a big Budda statue, or a Jesus statue, that is their business, not mine. I am free to choose to go to anther chinese restaurant if I want. If they had a policy of giving all chinese people a discount, guess what? I would care less! Again, it is their business. If I don't like their policies I can (and should) go to another place of business. I am not going to spend my time being offended or crying discrimination. Why not? Three reasons...First it is their business, Second I am not that weak, Third I have better things to do with my time (and my mind).

    As a country, and society, we are getting way too weak. It is time for more Americans to stop being so weak. Maybe the problem is that too many people have too much time on their hands?
     
  10. Magnetic Poles

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    Sorry, but they can indeed, and it has been upheld time and time again, which is exactly why I used the example of a church bulletin.

    The Civil Rights Act states:

    "All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages and accommodations of any place of public accommodation . . . without discrimination or segregation on the grounds of race, color, religion,or national origin."

    The Civil Rights Act is law and has the full force thereof. A business, although privately owned, is a place of public accomodation. Hence, the Civil Rights Act applies. To do otherwise would bring back the days of Lester Maddox chasing blacks out of his restaurant with axe handles, or Woolworth's lunch counter only open to whites.
     
    #10 Magnetic Poles, Jun 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  11. Martin

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    What A Leap

    ==I just love the spin you have applied to this. As I look over my previous reply I see NOTHING about segregation or discrimination (though neither are always bad). The issues here are the rights of a business to (a) offer discounts to selected customers and (b) play the type of music they wish. That has nothing to do with civil rights. Businesses have the right to play gospel music, rock music, country music, or the news station. No court can force a place of business to play a certain type of music or not to play a certain type of music. This is not a communist state. Also businesses are not required to offer discounts to all customers, nor can the government say who a business can or cannot offer a discount to. Businesses often offer discounts to those with military ids, or certain types of bumper stickers, or cards, or even documents showing they have been to an event (etc). No court can force them not to offer such discounts.

    Again if someone does not like the music played in a certain skating rink they are free to go to a different skating rink. If someone does not like who a business gives discounts to, they are free to go to a different business. This has nothing to do with "Maddox chasing blacks out of his restaurant with axe handles, or Woolworth's lunch counter only open to whites" since we are not talking about racial or religious discrimination or segregation.

    Contrary to what some judges seem to think the first amendment of the United States Constitution still applies. The First Amendment of the United States promises all Americans the following things...

    1. "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise" (of religion)

    2. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech"

    Congress can make NO LAW that restricts either freedom of religion or speech. ANY LAW that restricts either is unconstitutional .
     
  12. KenH

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    I agree with Joseph's libertarian statement. :thumbs:
     
  13. Magnetic Poles

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    Martin, while some of your points I agree with, you are dead wrong. The Civil Rights Act has been the basis for such lawsuits over discounts. One case of similar note was one in the late 1990s, related to Ken Kopp's Fine Foods. In that case, Mr. Kopp offered free milk to people who brought in a church bulletin from the local Catholic church. The complaining party made the case under the Civil Rights Act that the promotion favored Catholics over others, and religion over non-religion in a place of public accomodation under the Civil Rights Act. Guess who had to stop their promo?
     
    #13 Magnetic Poles, Jun 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  14. KenH

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    Then in these kinds of cases the Civil Rights Act is wrong.
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I agree with Ken. The Civil Rights Act should be ammended or done away with if it infringes on the liberty of private business owners to discriminate as they see fit. How long will it be before some homosexual minister sues a Baptist Church for not hiring him based on the Civil Rights Act. How stupid can we be?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  16. Martin

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    ==If that is true then one of two things is also true. Either (a) the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is unconstitutional and should be reversed or (b) it is being applied in an unconstitutional way. Either way there are some serious problems if what you say is true.


    ==It does not matter what the courts say nor does it matter who chickened out and stopped running their promo. What matters is the United States Constitution. Under that standard the judge who ruled against Fine Foods should have been impeached. Why? Because he/she did not uphold the United States Constitution.
     
  17. The Galatian

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    Nevertheless, I don't see what's illegal about a private business renting out facilities to a religious group.
     
  18. Magnetic Poles

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    I totally agree.

    Back to the point of total freedom for a business having latitude to do whatever it wants, this is not how it works, like it or not. All businesses are regulated in some way or another. As a private business, I cannot discriminate in employment because of race, religion, age, physical handicaps, or gender. This is covered by law that limits what an employer can do, with some exceptions. These are protected classes covered by things like the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, Americans with Disabilities Act, Civl Rights Act, etc. A privately owned radio station cannot switch frequencies without approval of the FCC. A telephone company cannot discriminate on serving people, because it is a common carrier.

    In a perfect world, the free market would take care of discrimination. However, it ain't a perfect world, folks. If the only auto dealer in town hates Hispanics, that leaves them the choice of driving many miles to buy a car. If the only homebuilder in town hates people with green eyes, where do they live? This is not a pure capitalist economy, but one of law and regulation. That is how it works, whether one agrees or not.
     
  19. Daisy

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    I wonder how much there is to this story, really. I mean, a post by a Freeper is not really a news article. Salty, did you see it in a local paper up there and then look for an on-line reference?

    If this is largely as represented, it looks like some agency weenie overstepped his bounds. New York State government is the pits to deal with (I work for a local government which has to deal with it) - they make the Feds look modern and efficient.
     
  20. Mishelly

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    Correct me if I am wrong

    They adverstised it as "Christian Skate Night"

    I believe in the Bible, I believe in the Contstion for Freedom of Relgion, I believe in the Civil Rights.

    If this is a private business that has ONE night dedicated for Christians I see no problems, if you are not a Christian then do not go on that night, go another night or to another skating rink

    I read some where that a majority of Americans say they beleive in a God, so then why does the minority try to tell others that it is unfair to practive what we beleive and at times enjoy it and have fun. Do they not have there time to tell others about there beliefs and have fun in the manner they want too

    Some people like to make trouble when there is none

    I see nothing wrong with a Christian Skate night
     
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