Christian twelve step programs ?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by SAMPLEWOW, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. SAMPLEWOW

    SAMPLEWOW
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    I've been reading a lot about 12 step programs and would like the Baptist board members oppinion about this type of recovery program. I'm not talking about A.A. but rather a Christ centered program.
     
  2. paidagogos

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    Basically, the so-called Christian programs are imitations of the secular programs with a few Bible verses tossed in. Reformers Unanimous is the only exception to my knowledge. I recommend your reading the following book for a better perspective: 12 Steps to Destruction: Codependency/Recovery Heresies by Martin Bobgan. Also, check out the following link: Twelve Step Programs
     
  3. guitarpreacher

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    Our church does Celebrate Recovery, which is a 12 step program that is Christ centered. We are seeing lives radically changed. If you're church wants to make an impact in a group of people that most churches have either forgotten or are ignoring, start Celebrate Recovery.
     
  4. bapmom

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    I agree with paidagogos.

    Reformers Unanimous is also the fastest growing addictions program in the country right now. They are seeing very good results, and they are more than just a "cookie-cutter" 12-steps program with a few Bible verses thrown in.....as I know many are.

    We definitely have needed some sort of focused program like this. It works when the program is focused on teaching people how to have a real walk with God.
     
  5. bapmom

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    Oh, further.......

    I think for too long we have had people within our churches react to drug/alcohol/and other addictions with the attitude that "now the person is saved so they ought to just magically be able to overcome these things..." I believe this has been a huge part of why we see people saved, but they don't stick real well to our churches, or we don't see some individuals growing much. This is not meant to be an advertisement for RU, but one way it is different is it is actually a discipleship program specifically geared to deal with the hard issues. Plus I need you to realize that RU applies to more than just substance abuse, it applies to "strongholds" in a person's life. How many of us have those? Thought life...eating...excessive guilt...depression (a stronghold although perhaps not a sin)...etc.

    We've allowed ourselves to think that these people just don't really want to do what's right, obviously that means they aren't saved then.....

    Well that's not true. Oftentimes they DO want to do what's right but we aren't teaching them how to be able to accomplish that. We are sitting back on the beach and watching them struggle in the water, and many of them are going to drown ("being overcome by the cares and toils of this world, they become unfruitful").
     
  6. paidagogos

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    I thought Celebrate Recovery had eight (8) steps, not twelve. :confused: Or, are you saying it is based on the secular concept of 12-step recovery programs?
     
  7. guitarpreacher

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    There are 12 steps in Celebrate Recovery. Those 12 steps are taken from 8 principles found in the Beatitudes. I guess you could say that CR is similar in its structure to AA, with the major exception that AA does not identify the "higher power". Celebrate Recovery is very much Christ centered and is very evangelistic. Also, in CR we do not spend time dredging up the past. Past sins and failures are dealt with, with the focus being seeking forgiveness from those we've wronged, and offering forgiveness to those who have wronged us. But the emphasis is on looking to the future, making good decisions and becoming the person God created us to be.
     
  8. SAMPLEWOW

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    bapmom I have been talking with the people from Reformers and it does sound like a real good program and my home church is thinking about getting involved in it.
    guitarpreacher is Celebrate Recovery part of Reformers or is it another program?
     
  9. Linda64

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    Here is a link to Celebrate Recovery--

    http://www.celebraterecovery.com.au/

    That's just one of the links--there are many others

    I seriously doubt that Celebrate Recovery is associated with Reformers Unanimous. Here's the link to Reformers Unanimous:

    http://www.reformu.com/

    BTW--good site paidagogos. I have read that book by Martin and Deidre Bobgan--I highly recommend it.
     
  10. guitarpreacher

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    CR and RA are not the same program.
     
  11. paidagogos

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    Then, am I correct in assuming that CR is reworked AA with a Christianized emphasis? If so, my question is what is the significant difference between the two approaches other than some Bible verses added to the support the points?
     
  12. paidagogos

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    Okay, I've read the eight principles. What is the role of repentance and salvation in CR?
     
  13. bubba jimmy

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    The problem with 12 step programs is when they talk about a "god of my own understanding". I was a person who played games with that statement. I thought it meant I could make up my own god. Well, that's what I did. That god failed me miserably. When I realized that the God of my understanding was Jesus Christ, then it only took one step rather than 12 for me to receive deliverance.

    But I do realize that not everyone with an addiction receives instant deliverance from addiction. I did not receive instant deliverance from all temptation to sin, only deliverance from the bondage of my addiction. But God works differently in different lives. There is not one "program" that provides a "formula" for recovery. That is the fallacy with most recovery programs. No set of buzz words delivers. Any recovery program has to be focused on Jesus Christ, surrender to Him, and faith the He, and only He, will deliver from bondage.
     
  14. bapmom

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    Very well put, bubba jimmy.


    SAMPLE, that's wonderful to hear that your church is thinking about starting a program! I hope they do.
     
  15. guitarpreacher

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    Okay, I've read the eight principles. What is the role of repentance and salvation in CR? </font>[/QUOTE]Is this a trick question? Did you really read the 8 principles? If you read them and still don't see the role of repentance and salvation, then I'm not sure how to answer you.
     
  16. bapmom

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    I can't speak for paidagogos, but guitarpreacher, I was wondering something similar to his question. My question though would be at what point does the program consider one "saved"? I mean, is this being targeted towards those who are already saved? or do they have a clear gospel presentation which offers the unsaved person salvation? From reading the principles it is hard to tell where the person is considered to be saved. Perhaps this is just because the principles are listed in their brief form.....but are they saying that overcoming all sin, confessing it to other people, making reparation...etc, are all necessary for the salvation process?

    These are my wonderings........I hope they aren't too muddled around. [​IMG]
     
  17. paidagogos

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    Okay, I've read the eight principles. What is the role of repentance and salvation in CR? </font>[/QUOTE]Is this a trick question? Did you really read the 8 principles? If you read them and still don't see the role of repentance and salvation, then I'm not sure how to answer you. </font>[/QUOTE]No trick. These are basic eschatological questions for any system purporting to be Christian. Yes, of course, I read them. I am simply asking for a clarification and definition of CR’s doctrinal and philosophical position.

    The problem with the eight principles is that they are general and somewhat vague leaving open many interpretations. Most AA groups (Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, JW, or whatever religious flavor for that matter) could accept these moral and ethical principles without the flicker of eyelid. These are simply good moral platitudes without any mention of sin, salvation, or who Jesus Christ is. What does it mean to commit one’s life to Christ? Follow Him as a great moral example? Practice His ethical teachings (any unsaved liberal theologian could agree to the same)? Is Christ just another great spiritual leader on the level of say Gandhi or Nelson Mandela or Bishop Tutu? So, what are we talking about?

    One of my critiques of Mr. Rick Warren is that he is vague on doctrine. It’s hard to pin him down on specific issues. On the other hand, Rick Warren has stated his dislike for doctrine in that it is divisive. So, I’m trying to ascertain the underlying beliefs of CR. No trick—just plain, straightforward honest questions. [​IMG]
     
  18. guitarpreacher

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    Look, the 8 principles are very straightforward and mean exactly what they say they mean. There's nothing vague about them at all. No mention of sin? #4 says "Openly examine and confess my faults to God, myself, and to someone I trust" That's pretty straightforward repentance of sin. Especially when combined with #5, "Voluntarily submit to every change God wants to make in my life and humbly ask Him to remove my character defects."

    No mention of salvation? #3 says,"Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ's care and control"

    The explanation of these principles are explained in detail in the 25 lessons that make up the program. We have seen lives radically changed through Celebrate Recovery. If you're really interested, invest a little money and order the leaders kit and read the lessons.

    But since you aren't asking the same type of questions about the Reformers Anonymous beliefs, I'm guessing your more interested in knocking Rick Warren that what the program is really about.
     
  19. bapmom

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    Well guitarpreacher, I can answer those questions for you about Reformers Unanimous, if you want.

    They have 10 principles, which actually are not steps, just lessons that the students learn. Things like "If God is against it so am I" and "You cannot fight spiritual battles with fleshly weapons"....etc.

    The salvation message is presented in the first book. One of the first "challenges" that the student completes is to write out their testimony. This is not how the gospel is presented, but it does leave room for the gospel to take effect. Before the student gets to that point they have already been witnessed to and shown from the Bible what God says about sin and what Jesus did for them.

    Im not comparing RU to CR, just telling you how we handle this part of it. Does CR go into more detail about what salvation really is? I'd assume the leadership of each chapter would do that during the meetings?
     
  20. paidagogos

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    No, they are not straightforward, as I have previously pointed out. These statements are open to all kinds of theological interpretations depending upon one’s beliefs and theological position.
    Unfortunately, it is not a good Biblical definition of repentance. Biblical confession and repentance is more than admitting one is wrong or has made a mistake. Do you understand the Biblical definition of repentance and confession? Principle # 4 could include anything and everything from the confessional booth (Roman Catholic) to the therapy group (psychotherapy). It really has no theological content, only connotation of some moral sentiment or therapeutic activity. It’s pabulum.
    Again, this is no better than AA where the word “God”, not necessarily the meaning or person of the Lord God Jehovah, has been substituted for “Higher Power.” It’s pabulum too.
    Is this salvation? Then, what does it mean to be saved? Is this the Biblical formula of salvation? “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)” Your Principle # 3 sounds more like an abdication of personal responsibility or some Jungian spirit guide rather than faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
    AA makes the same claims and it’s not even Christian or Biblical.
    On the other hand, why can’t you give me a clear definition and synopsis of what CR is and believes? I don’t really have the time to go through every program, both good and bad, in the marketplace. It seems that my earlier observations on RW are pretty much on target—it’s hard to pin down just what he believes and what his programs are.
    You’ve guessed wrong and your attitude is very defensive. It seems that when folks are put in corner by one’s questions that they respond defensively by questioning your manhood, patriotism and motives. Now, I ask if this is the kind of impression that you want to leave regarding yourself and CR?

    BTW, I asked the same questions about RA and expressed the same skepticism but some posters (check other threads) honestly answered my questions. Furthermore, I checked out their website and read some of their literature. Additionally, I inquired about RA among my friends, acquaintances, pastor and evangelist contacts, etc. over a period of several months. In the end, they made a good impression and you read my endorsement in an earlier post. So far, you and CR haven’t shown me much.
     

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