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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Andy_S, Jun 5, 2011.
Can you be a Christian as well as an evolutionist?
No. To be an evolutionist, you have to deny the first eleven chapters of Genesis, as well as Romans 5.
Evolution is incompatible with the Gospel.
Be patient with me, as someone who has a lot to learn.
Evolution was taught as fact in my school, and it isn't easy to overturn an entire belief system.
That is why I praise God that our salvation isn't dependent upon anything but acceptance of the Gospel message, and not our complete understanding of theology proper.
I have been a theistic evolutionist my entire life and a dedicated preacher of the gospel and teacher of orthodox theology. It is not a denial of any scripture, but an understanding of that scripture, born out by historical fact.
I'm not trying to be contentious in this post - or any other! Just exploring some issues that have troubled me and many of my friends.
I think it's just a case of arriving at a Scriptural conclusion, but that's not easy when I'm exposed to such fierce teachings to the contrary.
I believe that you can still be a Christian and believe in evolution but it is a false belief if we believe that the Scriptures are true.
Evolution in the sense that the earth was created in a big bang and that the earth is millions and millions of years old....yes, that does not agree with the Bible.
However, to believe that our world has evolved, then yes I can agree with that. That mankind has evolved and developed, yes. That the animal kingdom has changed and evolved, yes.
Dinosaurs are a good example of this. Did dinosaurs roam the earth? Yes. When? When God created them in the Garden of Eden. Did they die in a massive disaster? Yes, Noah's flood. Do dinosaurs still exist today? Yes! Look at the crocodile.
How about the Grand Canyon. That had to take millions and millions of years to form. This one almost had me until I heard a scientist teach about Mount St Helens. When Mount St Helens erupted in 1980 the lava formed a "Grand Canyon" of it's own in only hours! There are two excellent DVD's on these subjects available from the Institute for Creation Research.
I used to try to make evolution and the Bible fit together...you know, the theory that those millions of years could have taken place between verses, but it can't fit. I finally had to accept that in my years of schooling the teachers lied.
Can you be a Christian as well as an evolutionist?
Christians need to make a distinction between abiogenesis and evolution.
Abiogenesis is the creation of life from inorganic matter. I believe all Christians would be in opposition to this. Evolution does occur, it's undeniable. However, most Christians think evolution is the springing of life from nothingness, which is not a description of evolution.
My answer is that you can be a Christian and an evolutionist but that some aspects of the two do not fit comfortably together.
Did they tell you the formula used to determine ages of things that they have unearthed. Well here is the formula and you tell me how true the ages they tell are.
C14/C12 x 1/2 the age of the earth. Now evolution teaches the earth to be 4.5 to 5 billion years old so they take half of that and determine the age of things. Now if we took C14/C12 x 1/2 the age of the earth as 2885.5 based on the Jewwish year of 5771, then those same items would be considerablly less.
So you tell me if a theory is based on false premise does that make the entire theory a false premise?
For many years fundamentalists advocated the "gap theory". The gap between Genesis 1:1 AND 1:2.
In Alberta there is an area where ancient bones have been found. More ancient than the years commonly held by many. Remember, the Bible had no dates..The years expressed n some scriptures were drafted by an Irish theologian.
The Bible deals with biblical people and biblical locations. It does not deal with the Ice age and floods of North America. These are parallel periods, so we are not adding millions of spurious ages. Remember Columbus discovered "China" when he sighted America. People of that era even believed the world was flat.
Theistic evolution does not negate the creation of the human race, Adam and Eve being the first creation.
It is thought the first human inhabitants of Canada came across the ice between Russia and the Canadian arctic, and hence developed the North American Indian.
So, what is so difficult with theistic evolution? It simply connects the missing links, links not expressed in scripture. Scripture does not always follow a time line. It is not dealing with the whole of humanity, but expressly with the chosen of God to relate His truth and grace.
Theistic evolution does not detract from the fact the Bible is the very word of God, and totally true. It merely offers some revelation of the unrevealed.
The term "evolution" is used quite commonly by those inside science and outside science as a reference to micro-evolution as well as macro-evolution. The latter being false and completely unbiblical.
Howdy Andy! Just to throw my two cents in.:smilewinkgrin: John MacArthur has a series running and you can go to his websight and it's called "Battle for the beginning". http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Series/255_The-Battle-for-the-BeginningVery good stuff! When people try to say "evolution is true" it's just as bad as saying Hell does not exsist.
The difficulty with this, and questions similar to it, is that positions on the matter have been mightily entrenched to the point that one has no ability to offer a reasonable alternative.
I have many friends who are fine Christians and believe in theistic evolution. They are wonderful people who honor God with their whole lives and just simply disagree about a matter that is largely unknowable. Some have their faith, and even salvation, challenged by others and they learn how to move beyond these places.
The truth of the matter is that there are good options out there for beliefs about this topic. It is reasonable to hold to a evolutionary position and still identify the Scriptures as the inspired words of God. Our salvation is dependent upon our faith in Christ, not our positions on subjects.
I'm not merely talking about an "understanding". I'm talking about the fact that in order to accept evolution, one must actively deny the Gospel as expressed in the first eleven chapters of Genesis and in such New Testament passages as Romans 5.
Please explain the following:
a) how those pre-evolved pre-humans who lived and died before Adam and Eve died when the Bible says there was no death yet. More to the point, the Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam’s fall (Romans 7:18-19). But in evolution, sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does—He declares sin to be sinful. If sin is seen as a harmless evolutionary factor, then one has lost the key for finding God, which is not resolved by adding ‘God’ to the evolutionary scenario.
b) why the Bible calls death "the last enemy" when you claim that God used it as a beneficial tool. Why ascribe death to God, when the Bible says that it's the result of sin?
c) what it was about God's creation, called "very good" (Genesis 1:31) and "perfect" (Deuteronomy 32:4) that was so incomplete that He had to continue on by trial and error to bring it to completion.
d) Why did Jesus, in His statement about the creation account in Matthew 19:4-5, appear to be ignorant about the idea of theistic evolution?
e) If theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from ‘the dust of the ground’ by God (Genesis 2:17) then the creation account must be merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible (Romans 5:16-18). How can the same heretical view of creation that mythologizes Adam preach a true, literal Christ? By believing in a mythologized first Adam, you attack the Biblical basis of the redemptive work of the Second Adam.
f) In no other historical book do we find so many and such valuable statements of purpose for man, as in the Bible. For example:
Man is God’s purpose in creation (Genesis 1:27-28).
Man is the purpose of God’s plan of redemption (Isaiah 53:5).
Man is the purpose of the mission of God’s Son (1 John 4:9).
We are the purpose of God’s inheritance (Titus 3:7).
Heaven is our destination (1 Peter 1:4).
However, the very thought of purposefulness is anathema to evolutionists. Evolution, by nature is random and not purposeful. Therefore, a belief system such as theistic evolution that marries purposefulness with non-purposefulness is a contradiction in terms.
What explicit parts of the Gospel are lost by interpreting Genesis 1 - 5 as allegory?
Amen, Brother Allan!
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I Timothy 2:12-14
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.