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Christians, ACLU join forces in favor of 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus'

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    It's also not our job to make ourselves judge.
    Romans 13:1-5 -- Be subject to the governing authorities because they are ordained by God (v1). To resist them is to resist the ordinance of God (v2). Government punishes evildoers; do good and you need not worry (v3,4). We must obey, not just because of the wrath of the ruler, but also for conscience' sake (v5) -- i.e., because God commanded us to obey.

    1 Peter 2:13,14 -- Submit to civil rulers "for the Lord's sake" -- not just to avoid being caught and punished by the ruler, but to please God. This applies to all laws -- from criminal laws to traffic laws -- and even when we think the laws are unreasonable. We must obey or stand condemned before God.

    Bottom line, whoever tears up their sign was going against government law and diobeying God.

    To respect the rights of those kids is doing the right thing according to civil law. To not respect the rights of those kids is a direct disobeying of civil law, therefore disobeying God.

    Acts 5:29 -- We disobey only when obedience to civil law would involve us in disobeying Divine law.

    You weren't the one doing any kind of blaspheming, therefore bothering their personal stuff and and lawful freedom, you would be disobeying God.

    Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
    Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
    Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
    Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
     
    #41 JerryL, Apr 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2007
  2. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    I will say it again. If the government laws go against the Word of God, then we are not to obey them.

    God said 'Thou shalt not'. And no government free speech law overrides that.
     
  3. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    Right, but you weren't the one with the sign. They were, and you wouldn't have any right tearing it up. You still have no right making yourself judge and tearing it up. If these kids WEREN'T breaking the law and you DID, by tearing it up, if I was on the jury, I would have to go against you. "Thou shalt not" doesn't give you the right to break laws when you could walk on by. "Thou shalt not" means "YOU shall not", not, "You shall break the law to make sure no one else does" Think about it, by making yourself judge you are doing the same thing the Pharisees and Saducees did 2000 years ago, they killed Jesus. It not your job to uphold Gods law, it's His. Your job is to obey Him, and if the government doesn't ask you to break Gods law, He says you have to abide by theirs.
     
    #43 JerryL, Apr 8, 2007
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  4. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Roman 13:4 states that the authorities are set up to execute wrath upon those that do evil.

    When that evil (taking the name of the Lord in vain) is overlooked by the authorities (which it quite obviously is, then that authority is not doing that which he was set up to do.

    And when someone that claims to be a Christian sides with the world and defends the clear opposition to the Word of God, it is sad indeed. Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.
     
  5. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    When those four young men brought that sign out on a public sidewalk for all to see, it became public property . The Christian public had the duty to destroy that which was taking our Lord's name in vain.
     
  6. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    I see you have moved from not only being those kids judge to being my judge of my walk with God. I am glad it's not left up to you to save the world. Read it any way you want, it still says the same thing:

    Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

    Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God

    Last Post. Thank you Brother, but I think I'll let God judge me, not you, if that's ok?
    Jerry
     
    #46 JerryL, Apr 8, 2007
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  7. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    The authority of the governing judges is not to override God's Word. It is to execute wrath on those who disobey God's Word.

    These boys disobeyed God's Word when they made that sign.

    Quit advocating rights that those boys never had.
     
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    You can’t pull off of one passage in Romans and come to these conclusions of relinquishing the authority of God over to the good ole Stars and Strips! There is only One God and He is not a respecter of persons.

    If you were to live in Germany under Hitler would you obey that government? How about a Muslim nation that forbids worship of Christ altogether; do you obey them? Your analogy of Romans 13 simply does not hold!

    What does taking the Name of the Lord in vain mean to you? Simply saying a No-No? It goes a lot deeper than that for me! He is my Master above all things and Him do I serve.

    (Act 5:29) Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    (Pro 24:23) These things also belong to the wise. Itis not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

    (Joh 12:43) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

    JerryL, again on top of this you seem to be willingly disregarding, on a false pretense, the facts that:

    1) The constitutional right to free speech is not without limitations; it is not an open invitation to verbal mischievous detrimental pranks and the law has upheld this practicality with the example that it is NOT legal to yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater.
    2) The interpretation of the law pertaining to this case in point was in question and open to litigation during the time this event happened. It was not set in stone that this was a violation of the boy’s free speech or that they were conducting themselves legally; not to overlook they were promoting an illegal activity TO CHILDREN.
    3) To claim that this was going against government law and therefore disobeying God is unfounded and formed through a biased opinion which unfortunately is directed at supporting an agenda opposing Christianity of which indeed happened before the matter was even legally resolved or established.


    Is your master civil law???

    Who was to say those juvenile delinquents where within their rights while they were promoting an illegal activity to other children? Your resolve is to say they didn’t have to look at the sign??? Then why is it not legal to display public nudity or for that matter to swear and use vulgar language in public, and if it were on a sign then does that mean it is free speech and constitutionally protected, same logic???, so you don’t have to look, could just walk on by eh? By what standards of morality do you separate your priorities? How do YOU judge?

    Brother, I find your motives to defend the tactics of these evil doers to come from the belief that one should be conformed to the ways of the world being of more importance than regarding the whole of scripture to obey God’s instructions of righteousness and placing Christians as second class citizens to the pagans by your own choices.

    Putting such a high priority to your desired interpretations of scripture to obey government authority is in disregard to keeping the whole of God’s instructions on righteousness, “abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good” both inwardly and outwardly this should be followed!

    (Mat 5:10) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    (Mat 5:11) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    (Mat 5:12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    Consider the Apostles, they weren’t executed one after the other by strictly conforming to the laws laid down by the worldly government of that day.

    Romans 12:2 says, “Be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.”

    (Eph 5:9) (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    (Eph 5:10) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    (Eph 5:11) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    A Christian man that proclaims his love for God and country should always put God first and above all!

    You answered my last post simply saying we were only going in circles but yet I saw no viable refutations in this debate, only a stubbornness to hold on to what you believe to be the authoritive end-all brother. On a personal note I’m not judging you, but strongly disagreeing with your logic of allegiance.

    My wife says in discussions I have a tendency to go right for the jugular vein; so if this is what you perceive, please don’t take offense! :laugh:
    :1_grouphug:


     
    #48 Benjamin, Apr 8, 2007
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  9. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Wow, this thread has taken off since I was here yesterday. I've just been busy and wasn't ignoring ya'll. I'm responding as I read, so if things seem disconnected that is why, but I have to be back at church in just a bit and don't have a lot of time to read and then go back respond. Btw: Happy Easter!

    In His Blood: I asked that you not use Christ in the temple as an example for the simple reason that the temple was God's house NOT public property. Christ had all the authority in the world do as HE pleased anywhere He pleased but HE refrained from the use of violence in the parts of the world where HE had given over authority to "the god of this world". His own temple was the exception. Therefore, I wouldn't question a good Christian man who pulled down a disrespectful sign that some idiot brought onto or into a church or it's property.

    This boy was not on either school or church property with his disrespect. If God gave man the freedom to disrespect Him(and He certainly did or else Eve and Adam wouldn't have sinned) then who are we to tell someone that they can't disrespect God. Their disrespect will have eternal consequences and that is what we should be sharing. You can't share Christ with someone you have just antagonized.

    I think you forgot the next verse:

    Pr 26:4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

    God himself conferred to the government civil authority. You can't then go back and say that because the gov isn't doing things the way you think God would have them to that they aren't the proper authority. You are NOT God and have no authority to retake what God has given. God reserves that unto Himself and will one day retake the authority over the world. Until then we HAVE to abide by the laws of our gov even if we don't like them!

    Benjamin, if I were truely a liberal I'd have been helping the kid hold the sign. I am not a liberal because I believe that we should not be forcing nonChristians to live by Christian doctrine in a country that guarentees us all the right to believe or not believe as we please. Or maybe I am. But this is the way I believe and according to the same laws that let this kid(dumb as he may be) to lift up that sign, you are free to disagree with me. If folks want a theocracy with laws based soley on their interpretation of scripture, they need to get busy finding a place to form their own country and then move there. THIS country is the United States of America where we are free to follow God's laws or NOT as we freely choose and as God has allowed mankind to choose since the beginning.

    As Jerry says, your example of the kid with the knife doesn't apply because weapons on school grounds are clearly illegal. A kid with a sign just doesn't compare. I applaud you, btw, for taking a stand in this instance.

    And where in the Bible are we given the authority to apply the penalty of God's law? God gave that authority to our government. (hmmm, I seem to be repeating myself)

    Uh, no. Your logic doesn't follow here. When I walk down the street for all to see, niether I nor my clothes or the Jesus sign on the back of my t-shirt becomes public property or some atheist would have the right to come tear it off me.

    For the rest: What JerryL has said covers what I also believe. I see no reason to cover the same ground.
     
  10. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    By your logic, we are supposed to throw God out altogether and obey man. What does "free speech" have to do with God's Word which says "thou shalt not" When God says "thou shalt not" it is not open to discussion.

    Tolerance for sin will lead a person straight to hell.

    Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29)
     
    #50 Linda64, Apr 8, 2007
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  11. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    God says for the individual to obey God rather than man. But where does this give us the right or responsibility to make sure that someone other than ourselves does the same? Our responsibility ends with our sharing with another what God has to say, not with forcing another to do as God says. God already has consequences set up for those who disobey Him. He doesn't need us to add to them.
     
  12. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    The Word of God commands us to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord.

    Tell me mk and Jerry, do you think God thinks it right in His eyes for us to allow His name to be used in vain?

    If He thinks it is right for us to allow His name to be used in vain, why even give such a command that mankind is not to do such?

    You want verses where God gives authority for His followers to do as this principal did?

    Judges 6:25 (KJV) And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that [is] by it: {even: or, and}

    Judges 6:30 (KJV) Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die: because he hath cast down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the grove that [was] by it.

    2 Kings 10:27 (KJV) And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day.

    2 Kings 11:18 (KJV) And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces thoroughly, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars. And the priest appointed officers over the house of the LORD. {officers: Heb. offices}

    2 Chronicles 23:17 (KJV) Then all the people went to the house of Baal, and brake it down, and brake his altars and his images in pieces, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars.

    The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament is the same God of today. His people have the authority to break up any image (be it sign, statue, or symbol) that promotes anything that is against Him.
     
  13. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    And now a sign is compare to idol worship? Even so, who did God give the authority to to tear down the altar of Baal? Come on, you know the answer. It wasn't to Joe Isrealite, but to the rulers of the land! Only inone instance do I remember it being given to individual and even then they were only supposed to clean up their own households.

    Good debate, but I have to go. Anything else will have to wait a few hours.
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    A man that does not provide for his own is worse than an infidel. What about providing a moral and decent environment for our children? Does being a Christian put us as second class citizens? As In His Blood said, do we just throw up our hands and give up?
     
  15. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    The bottom line is folks, no one has a right to sin no matter what civil authorities may say.

    People's so-called rights have caused more harm to this country than Hitler did in killing over 6,000,000 Jews.

    Millions of babies killed every year all in the name of women's rights.

    Millions of people people becoming alcoholic's because they have been granted the right to drink once they reach 21 years of age.

    Millions of people going to hell because of their so-called rights.

    Jeremiah 6:16-17 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

    There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end there of is the way of death.
     
    #55 His Blood Spoke My Name, Apr 8, 2007
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  16. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Throw up our hands? Why no. God gave us a method for slowing down the inevitable slide to the point of no return. It's called "Go and Tell"! Nothing in there that I can find about "go and tear down" or "go and smack someone".

    God provides His own consequences for sin: it's called death and destruction. It's not called "wrath of Benjamin and In His Blood".
     
  17. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Since every true Believer has been made kings and priests unto the Lord, and as you pointed out only rulers have the authority to take such matters into their hands, We as kings and priests have that authority to tear down any sign that takes the Lord's name in vain.

    Romans 1:18-20 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    These young men have no excuse whatsoever. God revealed to them before they even made that sign that it was wrong.

    And those who advocate 'freedom of speech' for those young men have no excuse either for denying God's Holy command.
     
  18. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Romans 1:32 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    This verse completely destroys the tolerat it theory, or the 'freedom of speech' advocate stand.

    God says that if you even side with those who commit such things, God's wrath will be on you as well.
     
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    The new wave church, Christians are supposed to be soft spoken and only discuss the feel good.
    Not only turn the cheek, but if confronted lowly bow down and get on your back, paws in the air, tail curled up between your legs like a whipped pup and THEN WET YOURSELF! Go ahead, but that’s not what the Spirit is telling me.

    Ever consider turning the other cheek to mean take it on the other side too, but keep going? Nah, it must mean let them finish you off.

    I’m not a legalist but the Good Book tells me I’m a Child of God, humbly a first class citizen, I’ve yet to see the command to be a second class passive wuss under the feet of the pagans. I’m going to the exercise room now, gonna pump some iron and do some work on the heavy bag.
    [​IMG]
     
    #59 Benjamin, Apr 8, 2007
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  20. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    His Blood, I just love when someone I'm debating posts scripture that proves my point. I bolded part of it, though I'm slightly out of context (notice I admit to it and I will deal with it later in this post).

    Where does this scripture say the wrath of God is revealed from? Your hands? Benjamin's fist? My mouth? NOPE! It says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven. God doesn't need your help in providing wrath. Not only, but God clearly tells us that "vengence is mine" (Romans 12:19). It is not your place to force anyone to live within God's rules.

    What he expects of us to tell folks how to avoid His wrath.

    Now to deal with the context of the scripture. This particular passage is dealing with folks who have been told the truth and even know it to be true but refuse to do what God would have them to do. These are not merely unsaved folk that He is talking to, but folk who have all the facts and refuse Christ/God anyway. IMO, He is talking to the Jewish community who held all the prophecies and certainly should have recognized Christ and had ample opportunity to, but didn't (out of the hardness of their own hearts). Still this passage only warns us against becoming like those, it does not confer the responsibility to force a person to recognize God.

    Now if you trying to use this passage to imply that I somehow "hold the truth in unrighteousness" and can't possibly be truely saved because I don't hold to the same opinion as you, so be it. I won't nearly as surprised in heaven to see who made as you will be. :)
     
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