Christians and homosexual?

Someone who remains active in a homosexual lifestyle and is unrepentant will most likely stop attending a church that preaches against it. If a homosexual is "comfortable" in a church, then that church is not preaching the whole counsel of God's word.

One step further: If I become completely comfortable at my church, then I'm probably not being challenged to grow spritually and repent from things that are sinful before God.

 

Thank you, Dr. Bob.

Outreach can have a number of forms. We see several examples in the New Testament. Phillip was told to walk alongside the Ethiopian. Peter and Paul preached in public. Jesus preached in public, as a matter of fact...

But then, when those believers gathered together to pray and study the letters from the Apostles, they were just that, a group of believers.

There should be a division between evangelism and church.

In one place it is written that we should always be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have. That means you had better be living in such a way that people ask questions. And in order to give an answer, you need to know your Bible.

Church is for believers. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a radical difference between sinning sometimes as a believer and living in sin as an unbeliever. ANYONE who is persisting in living in sin, whether it is living out of wedlock with a 'partner', shoplifting as a method of acquisition, promoting arguments and gossip, thieving, homosexuality, ETC. should be put out of the fellowship at least temporarily. Church is not a club. It is not a 12-step method of self-improvement or regeneration. It is not even primarily a counseling center!

Church is where believers gather for prayer and study and fellowship.

The world can have us the rest of the week.

How on earth are we to be different enough for anyone to ask questions if church is no different from any other club or service organization?

"Come to church on Sunday and we can fix all your ills" is NOT what church is for!

It's for us. It's the one thing that is during the week.

I strongly believe that it is partly because church has become more like a club or social help organizaton that many think they are Christian because they belong, but know nothing of true repentance, being born again in the Spirit, and Christ Himself living through them as they are transformed, bit by bit by the Holy Spirit into His image.

 

You may wanna study 1 Corinthians 6:9 and really pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you in truth.

1 Cor. 6:9; Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind… (KJV)

Paul says that abusers of themselves with mankind… will not inherit the kingdom of God. So NO, homosexuals aren’t Christians. The NIV translates these abusers of themselves with mankind… as homosexual offenders, NKJV as homosexuals.

And I sin everyday too, but homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle. And Lev. 18:22 & Romans 1:27 condemn it. God will forgive a homosexual, but they must first seek God and genuinely TURN from that lifestyle and begin the road to recovery with God.

 

AMEN! Jeffery H! GOOD POST.

 

there must be a balance, Paul made mention of unbelievers coming into the local Church and being convicted.

But as for Christians and "fornication-porneia (a much wider scope than the english "fornication")...

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

HankD

 

One step further: If I become completely comfortable at my church, then I'm probably not being challenged to grow spritually and repent from things that are sinful before God. [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

Just because the Bible does not mention it, as you say, does not make it wrong. You are arguing from silence which is the very reason why you are unable to quote from the Word of God where it says that lost people should not be allowed to attend Church and hear the preaching of the Word of God...because it is not there.

But let's not hijack this thread. We need to let a good discussion on sodomites/lesbians and other perversions go the course here on the BB! [/QUOTE]

I don't think this thread is really about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. I think the topic is about how we as a church should treat them.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Helen,

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus, or the apostles taught that this is the way that it must be or that lost people are forbidden from attending Church to Hear the Word of God? If not, then your argument is unBiblical and has no merit from a Christian point of view.

In one place it is written that we should always be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have. That means you had better be living in such a way that people ask questions. And in order to give an answer, you need to know your Bible.

Church is for believers. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a radical difference between sinning sometimes as a believer and living in sin as an unbeliever. ANYONE who is persisting in living in sin, whether it is living out of wedlock with a 'partner', shoplifting as a method of acquisition, promoting arguments and gossip, thieving, homosexuality, ETC. should be put out of the fellowship at least temporarily. Church is not a club.[/QUOTE]

Why sure it is. It is only for the self righteous among us. And you must know the secret handshake to attend...

It is not a 12-step method of self-improvement or regeneration. It is not even primarily a counseling center!

Church is where believers gather for prayer and study and fellowship.

The world can have us the rest of the week.

How on earth are we to be different enough for anyone to ask questions if church is no different from any other club or service organization?

"Come to church on Sunday and we can fix all your ills" is NOT what church is for!

It's for us. It's the one thing that is during the week.

I strongly believe that it is partly because church has become more like a club or social help organizaton that many think they are Christian because they belong, but know nothing of true repentance, being born again in the Spirit, and Christ Himself living through them as they are transformed, bit by bit by the Holy Spirit into His image. [/QUOTE]

I sort of agree with you here Helen. Where I disagree is that I don't think it is because the lost are there listening to the Word of God. I think it is because the leaders of the Church are so desparate to persuade people to believe that they have abandoned the Word of God which is foolishness to the world and embraced the wisdom of this world. But let me ask you a question, do you wait untill your children are Christians before they are allowed to attend Church and listen to the preaching of the Word of God? Where do you find your justification for this? Are they not lost untill they are Saved? What about your youth? Is there any Biblical justification for allowing unsaved youth to attend Church?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Let me ask another question:

This is open to everyone who believes that lost sinners of any kind should not be allowed to attend Church to hear the Word of God. Do you stand at the door and ask each and every person about their salvation as they enter? If a person said they were not a Christian, how would you then deal with them? Ask them to leave? If so, can you justify such a practice with Scripture?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Let me reason with you here. Help me to understand what you are saying.

I don't know how many here believe in the doctrine "once saved always saved", but as for me I do and that means that if a person has been saved and turns at a later date to homosexual gratification, this is then by their choice to commit willful sin. That being the case, would they still be saved, but just living a sinful life by embracing a forbidden sinful lifestyle???

That sin does not move the saved to an unsaved position if OSAS is a true doctrine (is that the right word? doctrine?). That sin would separate them from God since they were living an unrepentent life. But would it destroy the security of that believer???

And one other aspect:
If a person is only a part of this lifestyle to sexually gratify himself/herself, and not become a bona fide sodomite, then do they also qualify as a homosexual??? I contend that not all homosexuals are sodomites, yet are attracted to same-sex persons as companions. And while they may perform some gratifications, they generally do not adhere to the assumed standard that most of us here recognize as abominable.

 

A person who is truly saved will not become a homosexual.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Don't be ludicrous.

People who are REALLY saved also sin. Many sin willfully when they discover that the world can be a very tempting reality. Many succumb to those temptations. That doesn't mean that they are not saved or that they were never saved.

Show me where in the Bible it says that those who are REALLY saved don't sin.

 

Those who are saved will not become homosexuals because homosexuality is an abomination to God and these will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There is a difference between messing up every now and then and then embracing homosexuality as a lifestyle. Please read the book of 1 John for more information.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Early on the Church was plagued with very same temptations and sins as Israel:

Revelation 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

"fornication-porneia" has a much wider scope than our present day word "fornication".

This does NOT mean the Lord simply overlooks the sin, there are consequences, even physical death to the disobedient.

So, IMO it is proper, even required for leaders in the Church to counsel (or worst) those who claim to believe yet are practising sin (or is the one in the world greater than the One who is in us?).

The unsaved should be invited and allowed to come to the local Church for there is the witness of both God and man.

Those unsaved who come into the Church and are unresponsive will generally not stay long after hearing the Word of God properly preached.

HankD

 

Have you not heard of Jesus' account of the ninety and nine??? One Hundred sheep in the fold and one went astray. The one sheep was saved in that the one sheep like the other 99 were following their Master. If even one goes astray the Shepherd goes in search of that lost one and then rejoices more over that one that was found than he did over the other 99 who did not go astray.

I don't know how long a sheep has to be missing from the fold until he is found and brought back into the fold once again, but there are safe sheep who go astray all the time. Jesus spoke the words in that story so I believe what it says to be true and there also was used the word "lost" after it went astray, so I am thinking that a person can be saved and then lost and then saved again after returning to the fold.

Some are called back but don't return and the wolves get them or they start running with a bunch of goats, before they finally figure out that they are not a goat but a sheep. When that happens that one lost sheep seeks and finds.

 

Isn't that what being saved is really about? Not just from the final judgment and the Second Death, but from the temptation, bondage, deception and corruption of sin while living on this Earth? I am speaking of any kind of sin and especially those of a sexual nature. Finding a way of escape from temptation is one of the promises to the believer.

Believers stumble, John's epistle seems to help by mentioning that.

Having a conscience toward God and men seems to be a valuable character trait for those who are born again by his Spirit. How else can someone be broken and contrite?

The flesh wants what it wants.
The Spirit wants what it wants.

In me, the two seem that they will war against each other until the end.

I've been equipped to fight against sin, so I fight. When help is needed I go to the Throne of Grace, which is wide open to the believer.

It is interesting to me, that if the works that Jesus did were done in Sodom, it would still be here today. It appears to me that they might actually have repented. Isn't it interesting that it is possible for sinners to repent if given enough information and desire by God?

 

I agree with you Joseph if you mean that unrepentant homosexuals are not saved since, by definition, only repentance can lead to salvation. But if you mean a guy who has repented and acknowledged Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour but has great difficulty 'breaking the habit, as it were, then I disagree - this guy is saved and needs prayer and support.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Here is what the Bible says, and I know this Scripture has probably been posted somewhere in this thread, about who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I replied in this manner only to show that we need to apply Scripture to the way we see things, and not the way we see things to Scripture. The Scripture specifically closes the door of the kingdom of God to the above.

However, there are those who are truly regenerated children of God who may have been in the grip of sin of homosexual sin, just as some of us were in the grip of various sins in our lives.

All of us, were born enemies of God in this plane we call time. I am an electionist, and I hold that God elected unto salvation certain individuals irrespective of their class, race, tongue, creed, or nation, and since God is not constrained by time, in His mind, the salvation of His elect is a done deal, all of them are already in His kingdom in Christ .

However, no one, no one is born saved, all are born enemies of God in time, until such time God regenerates them, independent of means, and grants them repentance leading to timely salvation in the which they abandon their former lifestyles and sin, and walk the narrow way, separate and holy unto their Savior.

Paul said in continuing his letter to the Corinthians :

 

1 John 1:8"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

We have two different situations here. One is saying that you do not have sin. (present) The next is saying we have not sinned. (past)
Saying either makes you a liar.
We all sin and all have unrighteousness. But God cleanses us from it when we repent(turn away from the sin completely).

 

Can a Christian become such a sinful man that he looses his gift of grace???

Can the lustful desire for sex corrupt the gift of grace???

Can a man who is saved, crave a sinful lifestyle, and then one day return to his first love (Jesus Christ) and be forgiven or was he never saved before his lustfulness???

Jbot says that if a man sins this way he was never saved to begin with.

But I contend that a man can be saved and then sin grievously for years on end and then one day return repentent and be forgiven for all of those years away from God. I contend that a man does NOT loose his gift of grace, while Jbot says that the man never had the grace since he did sin grieveously.