Christians can miss the kingdom, and go to hell for 1,000 years

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bartholomew, Mar 2, 2003.

  1. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi,

    I have been shown something that I strongly believe to be true, and I feel you all need to hear it, too. However, you will probably never have heard it before, and will probably consider it heresy. But before condemning me, I ask that you prayerfully look up and consider the scriptures I present. My position assumes that Christ will return to reign on earth for 1,000 years, but is EXTREMELY controversial independently of this, and will therefore probably provoke a large number of responses. I THEREFORE ASK THAT NOBODY TRIES TO ARGUE AGAINST PREMILLENNIALISM IN THIS THREAD, AND HEARBY REQUEST THAT THE MODERATORS DELETE ANY POST THAT DOES. PLEASE MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD IF YOU WANT ARGUE AGAINST PREMILLENNIALISM ITSELF. Thank you so much! [​IMG] Well, I'll try to keep it as short as possible...

    ---
    Jesus will one day return to judge (e.g. Matthew 16:27). When he does, all Christians will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (JSOC):

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;"(2 Cor 5:10-11a)

    Notice that this judgment is according to works - "that he hath done" - and can be "bad". So bad, in fact, that it gave Paul "the terror of the Lord". Now why would Paul be terrified of this judgement if the worst that could happen was for him to miss rewards? No, I contend that we should be terrified because God can punish us here. (See also, e.g. 1 Cor 3:11-17, 9:24-27, Heb 10:23-31, James 2:12-13,24, 1 Peter 4:15-18).

    Of course, many teach that a saved person can never be punished - Christ took the punishment we desrve. This is true as far as eternal salvation is concerned. If we simply believe that Jesus' death is the only way to put us right with God, then we are guarenteed a ressurection on the last day to live with God for all eternity; and we can never lose this (e.g. John 6:37-40). However, God can punish Christians for disobedience before that time:

    "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Rev 3:19. See also Acts 5:1-11, 1 Cor 11:27-32 and Heb 12:5-11.)

    If he can punish us in this life, why not at the JSOC? (see 1 Tim 5:25).

    After JSOC, Jesus will set up rule on earth for 1,000 years. Some people will rule with him:

    "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."(Rev 20:4-6)

    So, who are these people? I contend that they are the people whose works were found worthy at JSOC. This first ressurection is a conditional reward (see, e.g. Phil 3:10-11, Heb 11:35). Entrance and reign in this kingdom is conditional not just upon being saved (John 3:3), but upon suffering for Christ's sake (e.g. Mat 5:20, 2 Tim 2:12), bringing forth fruit (e.g Mat 21:43, Mark 4:11&20), not having/trusting riches (e.g. Mark 10:23&24, Luke 6:20), being devoted to God (Luke 9:61&62), forgiving others (e.g. Mat 6:14&15, 18:21-35), etc. In fact, it is probably best summed up:

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Mat 7:21. See also, e.g. 1 Cor 6:9&10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-7, etc.)

    So, what becomes of those who are not found worthy of kingdom reign? Answer: they experience terror at the judgement seat, and are cast into the underworld of hell. Jesus warned the saved apostle, John:

    "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47&48. See verses 40-50, and also Mat 5:22, 29&30)

    This would be a poitless warning if John could never miss the kingdom and go to hell! In fact, Jesus told us that the fact that God could cast us into hell was the very reason to fear him!

    "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."(Luke 12:4&5. See also Mat 10:28)

    However, when the 1,000 years are finished, all the dead will come out of hell to be judged before the Great White Throne (GWT) of God, and all non-Christians cast into the lake of fire to be punished for all eternity:

    "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:13&15)

    However, all the Christians who were being punished there will be raised up to live with God in the new Heaven and New Earth for all infinity, and God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. (e.g. John 6:39&40, Rev 21:1-4) This is the free gift guarenteed by our acceptance of Jesus' death for us. However, we can certainly be punished before then!
    ---

    Well, sorry that was so long. [​IMG] If anyone is interested further, you can send me an e-mail and I'll send you a more thorough article about it. There are also many good articles on www.kingdombaptist.org , as well as the chance to order an excellent book on the subject; "The Rod: will God Spare it?" by Pastor Joey Faust. Well, thanks for reading,

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
  2. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    189
    Thank you for your thoughts Bartholomew.

    Since I am not a premillenist, I am not going to address the subject of your post... but when I saw the subject line I immediately thought of the "Baptist" church in Venus, Texas (a few miles south of Fort Worth). Then I noticed you have a link to that church's site in your post, so I know it is not a coincidence.

    I have only a passing familiarity with this church, but I have a VERY unfavorable view of it. For many months, members of this church stood out on the streetcorner in downtown Fort Worth and literally screamed at people, condemning them to hell for all sorts of "sins" (women wearing pants, going to movies, etc.). Trying to talk to one of these "preachers" was nearly impossible since I was "obviously in open rebellion against God" (how such a thing would be "obvious" and how I was in rebellion against God was never explained). I think they were trying to "evangelize" using fear, intimidation, and guilt. I don't get intimidated easily, so I just talked to them calmly while they screamed at me at the top of their lungs, but they did not seem to be in the mood to talk about their beliefs.

    Fortunately, these extremely poor witnesses for Christ are not currently blocking the sidewalks and screaming at passers-by. Maybe they've had their fill of "persecution" by now or have reconsidered their strategy. But all I saw of the people who went to this church was fear, extreme legalism and hyper-judgmentalism.

    I would be very cautious of any teaching from their website.
     
  4. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  5. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,158
    Likes Received:
    322
    Has anyone else looked at this site?

    They are KJVO with a new twist (or at least one I haven't heard).
    They say that the several editions and corrections the 1611AV went through were : the gathering of the bones, the putting on of flesh on the bones , the breathing of life into that flesh on the bones... until we now have a resurrected Word - the Holy Authorized King James Bible 1769 Oxford Edition as the "resurrected" Word of God (sic).

    How they know that it is the Oxford edition I'm not sure.
    Does any one know if there is a Cambridge edition faction? I'm serious.
    How about those who insist on the original 1611 edition (with Apocrypha and marginal notes?).
    Also it flys in the face of their view on preservation for every generation, seeing the Word of God was "dead" before 1611.

    Would someone else please go look at this site.
    Click on "King James Bible Onlyism" on the left margin and do a read.
    Am I getting the wrong idea?
    You know, I hope that I am.
    Well maybe not, as this gets more bizzare (arguing for the KJV year of publication as well as the edition), people will see it for the confusion (imo) that it is.

    Then from another article concerning those who disagree with the "resurrection theory" (to wit: the Holy Authorized King James Bible 1769 Oxford Edition as the "resurrected" Word of God) are called "Nicolaitan priests" because they dare to disagree. Then they are summarily assigned to the Great White Throne Judgement.

    Oh well, first the RCC excommunicates me now the KJVO (I'm not sure whether to use a smiley or cry-baby emoticon).

    HankD
     
  6. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, about all I've got to say is, Jesus died so I don't have to go to hell. Nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that.
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a staunch pretribber, I find this stuff embarrassing to read. I have patience for other premillenialists, but this is ridiculous.

    This teaching is new for a reason.
     
  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    189
    This is one of those times I can say a hearty AMEN to your post!

    Their doctrine is bad... their practice is worse.
     
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    FIRST:
    The Lord Jesus Christ made a full payment for all sin and sins when He died upon the cross. His sacrifice was accepted by God the Father.

    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions , he was bruised for our iniquities : the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all .
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin , he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many , and made intercession for the transgressors.

    SECOND:
    The moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he receives Christ’s righteousness. This righteousness is imputed to the believer. At that moment he is fully, completely, and totally justified. This justification and imputed righteousness is never removed.

    Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    If you have believed on Jesus:
    1. Your iniquities are forgiven
    2. Your sins are covered
    3. The Lord will not impute sin.

    Heb. 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    Heb. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    My initial sanctification is guaranteed to last for all of eternity. This is the teaching of Philippians 1:6 and I Corinthians 1:6,8
    Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
    1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
    1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    THIRD:
    All warning of punishment must be restricted to the affliction of the flesh in time, not to the soul following death or the rapture for two reasons.

    One, the new man, the inner man cannot sin, therefore would never have any reason to be punished. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Two, the body of sin and death that is guilty of transgressions (Romans 7:17) has been left behind, and the believer stands at the judgment seat glorified. (Philippians 3:21) free from the body of this death (Romans 7:24) and is presented to the Father by Jesus without spot or blemish (Ephesians 5:27). The one who sinned is gone. The one who could not sin stands before his redeemer in a glorified body.
     
  10. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, this is the first time I have seen EVERYBODY agree to disagree with a poster (me, too). Maybe there is hope for unity (almost) ;) [​IMG]
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Let me add my hearty agreement with the blanket rejection of this false teaching. :eek:

    I've seen some strange things come out of Texas, but the only thing I like coming out of Texas is I-35. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I noticed J.R. Graves on the list of adherants on the History forum. Is it possible this is a re-hash of soul slipping?

    I believe those on the list that I noticed probably know the error of that teaching now.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, I would appreciate it if you guys would not turn this into a KJVO discussion or about any particular church! My purpose in posting the link was to tell you that there were some good articles there on THIS SUBJECT, and show you where a book about it can be bought (it IS a good book; I own several copies). I would also point out that many of the people who have taught this doctrine in the past were certainly NOT KJVO. In fact, I have an article written by G.H. Lang (who believed this idea) saying how superior the Revised Version was (in his opinion) to the KJV.

    [ March 04, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]
     
  14. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Bart! It's good to find someone with an open mind. [​IMG] Yes, I am sure John was a believer at this point. Look verses 38-41 of that chapter:

    "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."

    Notice that John is both said to be on Jesus' side, and to "belong to Christ". I find it difficult to believe that he was anything less than a believer. Consequently, the warning of his missing the kingdom and going to hell can not be dismissed as not having any application to us.
     
  15. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Kate B,
    Perhaps nothing I can say can change your mind, but I suggest you have a look in your Bible to see if it really DOES teach that Jesus death means we can't go to hell. The most ferociously defended man-made traditions are held because people think that what they've always assumed must be true. Still, good to hear your opinion.. ;)
     
  16. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why such rejection to think? I posted many verses up there in support (I could have posted many more, particularly from Jesus' parables). Why do you have no patience with me? And why don't you look at that link to the other discussion I have up there (though unfortunately that thread got closed down). Rather than just assuming this is a new teaching, just because you've never heard it before, why not at least ask if this is new? No, it is not - it was in fact taught back to the earliest days of the church (not to mention throughout the Bible).
     
  17. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree.
    This is true - it is true regarding the the infinite price God demands for sin. This price is finally demanded on the last day, at the Great White Throne. However, this does NOT mean that Christians can not face punishment BEFORE that time.
    True. But why not read further on in the chapter?

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." (Heb 10:26-30)
    He was CONFIDENT. It doesn't say he knew it for sure.
    Notice the "MAY BE".
    If this is so, then how come Christians are punished now? Punishment isn't just your body being attacked whilst you, the person, have nothing to worry about. Sickness hurts the PERSON. Besides, how can something be punished without the one who committed to crime being punished? How can a murder be punished without punishing the murderer??? But even if you are correct, then if a PERSON can be tormented in fire in this life without any biblical principle being violated, that PERSON can also be tormented in fire during the millennium.
    None of those verses even suggests that ALL Christians will have bodies that cannot be punished when they stand before the judgement seat.

    Well, thanks for your response, Pastor. [​IMG] Why not have a look at the passages I referenced in the first post? If my interpretation of them is wrong, please tell my why. However, as it stands, I appear to have a great many verses in my support.

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
  18. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Messages:
    947
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rev. 20:5& 6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

    Rev. 20:11-15 describes the white throne judgement of God and the book of life. When a person is saved by grace alone (lest anyone should boast,) his/her name will be written in the book of life. They will not have to withstand the white throne judgment, and face the second death.

    Yes, we will recieve crowns of rewards for the deeds (works) we have done on this earth, Which are the evidence or fruits of our salvation. But we will not face the second death because our names are written in the Lambs book of life. We are saved by faith through Christ our redeemer. Works do not get a person to Heaven, or keep a person from death, or hell, which will both be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

    Christians are born twice and die once. The unsaved are born once and die twice.

    Charlotte
     
  19. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2002
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Charlotte,

    I mostly agree with you. [​IMG] At the Great White Throne, all Christians will be judged worthy (by the blood of Jesus) to be raised to live forever in bliss with God. But at least some of these will have come out of hell (Rev 20:13). It is before this time, during the millennium, that some will have been in hell as punishment for disobedience to God in this life. They will have been punished "with the unbelievers":

    The lord of that [disobedient] servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.(Luke 12:46&47)

    As for the second death: no, Christians will not be cast in there on the last day to be punished for all infinity. However, does this mean it can have no "power" over the believer? Could this "power" (Rev 20:6) not be the same as being "hurt of the second death" (Rev.2:11)? The above quote from Luke had two stages of punishment: cutting in sunder, and then giving his portion with the unbelievers. I suggest that this "power" over or "hurting" of Christians may well be accomplished at the judgement seat (1 Cor 3:15, Heb 10:27, 12:28-29).

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew:)
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,666
    Likes Received:
    225
    Christians can miss the kingdom, and go to hell for 1,000 years

    Holy Cow!
     

Share This Page

Loading...