Christians Must not block the "roadmap" for peace

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by bobfrgsn, Jun 1, 2003.

  1. bobfrgsn

    bobfrgsn
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    Christians must not block path to Middle East peace

    Some U.S. Christians have tried to draw detours on the "road map" to peace in the Middle East. They need to step back from the table and allow residents of that region, who actually must follow that map, to negotiate its course with help from advocates of lasting peace.

    For many years, Christians who think they have figured out the scenario for the end of time and believe the geography of Israel and Palestine holds a key to that scenario have inserted their influence into Middle Eastern affairs. While they are not the sole cause of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed, their views and their involvement have hindered the peace process. On the one hand, they have given intransigent agents within Israel the sense they can act with impunity, believing strong political forces within the United States will back them, no matter what. On the other hand, they have exacerbated many Palestinians' hopelessness-born anger, feeling they have nothing to lose and will be condemned, no matter what.

    Does any group have a right to impose its theological understanding of history upon the peace process in Israel and Palestine?
    People of all faiths, particularly Christians, Jews and Muslims, should be concerned about and strive for peace in the Middle East. The strip of land along the Jordan River is holy ground. More importantly, however, all the people who live there were created in God's image and should be able to live in peace, without fear of suicide bombers or military mortar.

    The conflict started thousands of years ago. Jews, Muslims and Christians all look back to Abraham as the first patriarch of their faith. They point to a couple of starry nights in antiquity, when God promised Abraham his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and would dwell in a land God would give to them (Genesis 12, 15). Jews and Christians recognize the fulfillment of that promise in Isaac (Genesis 18, 21), the son of Abraham and his wife, Sarah, and Isaac's descendants, who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Others note Abraham's other son, Ishmael, born of Sarah's Egyptian handmaiden, Hagar, as the fulfillment of God's promise to produce descendants who became "too many to count" (Genesis 16). At Sarah's urging, Abraham sent Ishmael and Hagar into the wilderness, but God looked down on them in mercy and promised to make "a great nation" of Ishmael (Genesis 21). Despite God's blessing on both sides, the offspring of Isaac and Ishmael have fought almost ever since.

    Many people today, including millions of conservative evangelical Christians, point to God's promise of land to Abraham and God's fulfillment of a "nation" through Isaac as divine sanction for the modern nation of Israel. Others counter that claim for various reasons. Some note that in Christ, God made a new covenant with God's people, and followers of Christ are the "new Israel," leaving the Israelis' claim theologically groundless. Others stress the modern nation of Israel is quite secular and carries no special connection to a divine promise of existence. Still others point to the Palestinians' long occupation of the land and conclude Palestinians hold at least as much right to the land as Jews.

    Many American Christians have written the modern nation of Israel a political blank check for yet another reason. Their interpretation of the Book of Revelation leads them to believe the pivotal events at the end of time will take place in the Holy Land. Consequently, they believe this end-times scenario can only be completed if the Jews control the region. Inspired by their theological understanding of the apocalypse, they want the region to be controlled by Israel.

    Unfortunately, some of the gravest political atrocities of all time have been conducted under the name of Yahweh, Christ and Allah on that sacred but sin-sodden soil. This poses an important question: Does any group have a right to impose its theological understanding of history upon the peace process in Israel and Palestine?

    The answer is no, for several reasons:

    The theological position of any one group might--and very well may--be wrong. For example, the dispensational premillennialism that drives some Christians to endorse Israeli hardliners without question is not a majority view among conservative, Bible-believing Christians. Fervent Christians hold a variety of views about the end times, all of which leave room for various interpretations of current Middle Eastern political philosophy. And that says nothing of the strongly held theological views of Jews and Muslims.

    A rigid eschatological understanding that presumes God can work under only one set of political circumstances borders on--if not crosses over into--idolatry. God is bigger than 21st century political borders. Furthermore, Jesus taught that only God the Father knows the time and place of the Second Coming and the end of the age. Political attempts to engineer history so that God is bound to act in a certain way contradict Jesus' teachings and strike at the sin of Eden--humanity's attempt to take the place of God.

    All the people who live in the Holy Land have been made in God's image and are precious in God's sight. Yes, most U.S. Christians feel a close affinity for Israel and wish to see Jews there living free and secure. However, the Palestinians also have a right to safety and security. Children and civilians on both sides have been the victims of violence. As people who worship the Prince of Peace, we should desire to see the peace of the Holy Land secured for all who dwell there.

    The Holy Land strains our capacity for hope. The pages of its history are drenched in blood, and the most recent chapter is as stained as any. Yet we who see that land as sacred should pray and advocate for peace upon its peoples.
    --Marv Knox
    E-mail the editor at [email protected]
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    Amen, amen, and amen!
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    1Cor.3
    [19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

    God will have the final say. He may decide to intervene in this Road Map before it is ever final. Then again, He may not. We will watch and see.

    In the final analysis, it will be Jesus Who rules & reigns from the Throne of David in the City of Zion, the City of David. Not Mo. God will have the Final Word. [​IMG]
     
  4. bobfrgsn

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    She Eagle, I am glad to see that you have relinguished the Throne to God. I don't see what you could find to debate in the editorial I posted in that it covers all perspectives on the Israel question. You are right. God will get the glory and the victory without any manipulation from people. Blessings on you! [​IMG]

     
  5. KenH

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    Just curious, SheEagle9/11, how will we know if God intervenes to sidetrack the Road Map? If there is a series of homicide bombings? If either the Israeli or Palestinian prime minster is assassinated?

    Bottom line, SheEagle9/11, would you be disappointed if the Road Map succeeds and it brings about a Palestinian homeland on the West Bank, Gaza, and eastern Jerusalem, and peace between the Israelis and Palestinians - or at least less violence than there has been in decades?
     
  6. LadyEagle

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  7. KenH

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    You didn't answer my questions, SheEagle9/11. And they are legitimate questions. I hope you are not letting your eschatological viewpoint interfere with the desire that all rational humans have to see all people live in peace.

    So, will you answer my questions?
     
  8. PastorGreg

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    The "Road Map" will not bring about peace in the Middle East. All the Arab nations hate Israel, and one of the Palestinians main tenets is taking away the Jewish homeland. Regardless of theological viewpoint, the land was given to the Jews in 1948 and the Palestinians have no right to it. By the way, what's a Palestinian? There is no such nation. Yassir Arafat is Egyptian, and the rest are from other Arab countries. I'm with you, She Eagle.
     
  9. KenH

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    For some reason I am afraid that Christians, regardless of theological viewpoint, are more interested in fighting than in at least trying to find peaceful means to resolve disputes. Maybe we are regaining the old mentality from 1000 years ago during the Crusades. :(

    Are we not obligated as disciples of the Prince of Peace to at least try to peacefully resolve disputes? Should we not at least be trying to teach both Jews and Palestinians to love their children more than they hate each other?

    Perhaps SheEagle9/11's failure to answer my questions speaks volumes. Very unfortunate volumes. :(
     
  10. Johnv

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    I think the people of the region must learn to peaceably solve their own problems. If the people of the region decide the roadmap is a viable solution, then so be it. If they don't then another solution will present itself. I become increasingly concerned when American Christians try to tell the middle east how to solver its problems.
     
  11. bobfrgsn

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    what's a Palestinian Question asked by Pastor Greg.

    Answer: A Palestinian is one of the people who has lived in Palestine for hundreds of years until the British Mandate gave Israel a portion of the Land for a homeland. A Palestinian is one who has been shoved, forced, bombed, etc out of his home by Israelis ... homes and lands that they have occupied for hundreds of years. The usurpers are the Israelis. Both groups deserve a homeland. I would suggest that you read a very balanced and excellent book on this conflict: HOLY LAND UNHOLY WAR: Israelis and Palestinians by Anton La Guardia. published 2001.
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Perhaps SheEagle9/11's failure to answer your questions only meant she was taking a nap! [​IMG]

    I must say, this is the first time I've been accused of speaking volumes when I was silent. Condemned if I do and condemned if I don't, eh?

    Unfortunately, there are some who will NOT know. Some will.

    The Arab nations initiated four wars against Israel:

    1948 War of Independence
    1956 Sinai War
    1967 Six Day War
    1973 Yom Kippur War

    God intervened & fought for Israel each time. Of course some refuse to see that God intervened then and they will be the same ones who refuse to see it if & when God intervenes once again.

    There have already been a series of homicide bombings. What part of Intifada do you not understand? :(

    Your position regarding the Road Map is based on a series of myths:

    Myth 1: A separate Palestinian people existed with historic roots in Palestine

    Myth 2: The Zionist Jews stole the land from Palestinian Arabs

    Myth 3: Israel is responsible for the plight of the Arab refugees

    Myth 4: If the West, particularly the US, would be fair and evenhanded, Israel would be neutralized and Palestinian Arab problems would cease.


    I don't believe it will. What part of Islamic teaching of "drive Israel into the sea" do you not understand? What part of Islamic domination 101 do you not understand?

    However, let's just say for the sake of argument (only) that you are correct, peace and safety does come about. Then all it is doing is setting Israel up for the coming invasion of Gog and Magog.

    It will be curious to see how Solomon's 3rd Temple will be built when all of Jerusalem is in control of Islam and all of Christianity's holy sites are under Islamic control and Jerusalem is the capital of the New State of Palestine.

    All is in God's hands and His timing. All Prophecy will be fulfilled. God ultimately has the final say in the affairs of men and of nations. All will be done according to His Supreme Will and Purpose. I am against the Road Map from Hell but if God allows it to happen, then it is ultimately in His hands & ultimately His will. His will WILL be done. But I believe He will intervene.

    If the Neo-Nazis, Islamic Fundamentalists, baby butchering, pro-gay, socialist liberals are all jumping up & down with glee over this "Road Map," that in itself pretty much tells me it was hatched in hell. [​IMG]

    My eschatological viewpoint has nothing to do with the desire that all rational humans have to see all people live in peace. The people of Iraq wanted to live in peace, but some of the very same people who applaud this Road Map were against freeing the people of Iraq. The Sudanese people would like to live in peace. Many countries in Africa would like to live in peace. Many nations under Islamic rule would like to live in peace and have freedom for all.

    http://www.persecution.org

    Your feeble attempt to villianize pre-tribbers, insinuating that we do not want peace because certain of us believe Israel is STILL the apple of God's eye and is STILL God's chosen people and do not believe in Replacement Theology (that the church TOOK the place of Israel) is quite shall we say, overwhelming, if not offensive & divisive to boot. :rolleyes:

    Israel would like to live in peace. Hezbollah, Hamas, al-Aqsa Martyr Brigade, the PLO, and Palestinian Jihad and those who support them do not desire peace. Independent polls of Palestinians show the majority of the Palestinian people support homicide bombings. You do not indoctrinate and raise generations of children to blow themselves and others up with bombs and then one day wave a magic wand called a "Road Map for Peace" and expect the homicide bombings will stop.

    Anyone who is naive enough to believe that, needs to quit abusing substances, IMO. :rolleyes:

    Click -Palestinian Education of Children


    http://www.palestinefacts.org/

    http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history/story/history20021220.html

    I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. Shalom.
     
  13. KenH

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    I do not blame the Israelis for the current situation. They were attacked and took land as a defense mechanism. Regardless of how the current situation developed it is time for Israel to return the land it gained in the 1967 war in exchange for peaceful co-existence. They need to allow a Palestinian state. If don't receive peace upon doing so, then they should build a wall along the border of the Palestinian state and keep them out.

    You mean sort of along the same lines as dispensational premillennialists insinuating, if not outright stating, that those who disagree with their eschatology are anti-Semitic and don't believe the Bible. :rolleyes:

    That's why I said it is necessary for both the Palestinians and the Israelis to learn to love their children more than they hate each other.

    By the way, SheEagle9/11, after all of that wordage of yours you still did not answer my question as to specifically how we will know if God intervenes to stop the peace process that you oppose. And you did not answer if you will be disappointed if the Road Map succeeds in bringing peace. By the way, people like you calling it the "Road Map from Hell" shows a certain lack of desire for peace among Israelis and Palestinians, in my opinion.

    And, finally, what are you doing taking a nap while I'm trying to debate with you! [​IMG]

    Have a blessed night's rest.

    Maranatha.
     
  14. C.S. Murphy

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  15. KenH

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    Then please quote for me where she answered the questions. I didn't find them.
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    Some of us may hear a still small voice. [​IMG]

    Some of us may stand still and see His Glory! [​IMG]

    Some of us may hear the "sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees." :D

    Or some of us may be crying but will still know God is ultimately in control.

    The battle we see with earthly eyes is not always what is going on in the Spiritual realm. [​IMG] Only if one seeks to have his/her spiritual eyes opened, can one truly see beyond the physical maneuvers. [​IMG]

    No, calling it the "Road Map from Hell" doesn't mean there is a lack of desire for peace. That perception of "people like me" is flawed.

    Road Map from Hell is (from my frame of reference) simply calling it by what it is - a tool designed to sell out the nation of Israel, a tool designed to End the Only Democracy in the Middle East - giving in to the terrorists & their demands. Appeasement of the terrorists in their quest to drive Israel into the sea. And,

    Putting our national affirmative "seal of approval" on the acts of terrorist homicide bombers by not insisting that they go at least 6 months or one year without any further homicide bombings before Israel is urged to sit down at the negotiating table.

    The US is supposed to be fighting a war on terror. Which is why we took out the Taliban and sought to take out al-Qaeda. Which is why we undertook a regime change in Baghdad. But we speak with forked tongue (meaning the Administration) when we strong arm Israel & threaten sanctions if they do not go along with our "Road Map" and by insisting they do not have the same rights to fight the war on terrorism as we ourselves have done. And,

    By not rooting out the terrorist camps of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Jihad in Syrian occupied Lebanon which churns out more homicide killers by the week.

    Could someone be trying to win the Muslim vote in 2004? :rolleyes:

    Me disappointed if the Road Map brings peace? I don't believe the Road Map will bring about peace.

    Any plan for peace can only come about when there is a concerted effort on BOTH parties which historically, there has not been. You keep saying peace would come about when both Israelis and Palestinians love their children more than they hate each other.

    Well, that is true Ken. Except you left out part of the equation. Palestinians truly believe that when their children go blow themselves up and kill Jews, their children are going to Paradise and therefore, the whole family will be guaranteed a spot in Paradise because of this supreme act of "martyrdom" for Allah.

    Israelis, on the other hand, do not teach their children these things. Judeo-Christian teachings are different than Islamic teachings when it comes to the sanctity of human life.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" is not in the Quran.

    It would be nice if reality was as simplistic as the average person, including you & me, would like it to be, wouldn't it?

    Disappointed to see the only Democracy in the region destroyed? Yes.

    Disappointed to see the Holy Places of Christianity come under Islamic control? Yes. Like they dessecrated the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem by urinating & defecating in it, etc., while it was under seige from the Islamic terrorists during Christmas? Yes.

    Disappointed to see God's judgment on America and the UK for being tools to bring about the destruction of Nation of Israel, the apple of God's Eye? Yes.

    Disappointed in seeing peace? There will never be true lasting peace until the Prince of Peace comes to Rule & to Reign with a Rod of Iron from the Throne of David in Jerusalem, Mt. Zion.

    How many peace treaties have the best men, governments, and minds created over the history of the world that have lasted?

    Then there is an alternative view of one reader who wrote in to the Jerusalem Post. (It wasn't me. They didn't publish my letter yet. LOL.)

    NOW THAT, Brother Ken, is even more radical than my viewpoint, wouldn't you say?
    A woman's gotta do what a woman's gotta do! [​IMG] And now, without further ado, guess where I'm headed? Good night. Sleep tight. [​IMG]
     
  17. KenH

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    That would be a bonus reason for seeing the Road Map succeed, beyond the most important reason of the Israelis and Palestinians, especially the children, living in peace. The bonus would be to see dispensational premillennialism proven wrong beyond a shadow of a
    doubt. ;)

    Sweet dreams, SheEagle9/11. [​IMG]

    Maranatha.
     
  18. Major B

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    Whatever one's political stance on this (I am basically pro-Israel), let us not forget Who writes history (and it isn't Bush, Sharon, Arafat, or anyone else wearing a suit).

    Acts 17:24-26 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"

    Neither we nor anyone else is going to hinder the plan of God in this matter.
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

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    Actually, it all depends on the elasticity of ones dispensational premillennial model. Mine is elastic enough to account for a seeming armistice in the conflict. And that doesn't prove the model any more wrong than World War I proved the post millenial model wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. The question being are we prepared to see the nation of Israel pushed into the Med at this time? Even if it were, that would not change my pretrib/premil postion. My time is not God's time. Just because I think something means a certain thing from prophecy, that doesn't make it so. Considering, the prophecy has not been yet fufilled to the letter no matter how you slice and dice it.
     
  20. Johnv

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    Squire speaks wisely. [​IMG]
     

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