Featured Christians not commanded to refrain from bowing before images?

In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others... that's mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us.... that's mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.

There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.

Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).

Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus' Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus' role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God's role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ's role as Mediator.

 

Long? I am writing the book on long posts (still writing it which is why it is so long, lol).

As with all denominations there is a range within the Doctrine of each individual that usually runs from nominal to fanatical. The following statements can be seen, I think, to be a rational and understandable explanation of your view concerning a Catholic position on praying to Mary and the (passed away)saints. However, having spoken with many claiming to be Catholic I have come to find that while some have a very conservative view of certain doctrine of dispute among the denominations, some have stepped into a fanatical and (understandably) heretical doctrine which does in fact worship Mary and reaches out to her just as we would in our supplications to God, Who alone has the power to answer prayer.

Encounters with such leads to a tendency on the part of those opposed to such doctrinal views for hostility, and while I know there are many well meaning and sincere Catholics who love God and seek to do His will, there remains an obligation to clarify between what a particular denomination teaches and how that translates to the individual's personal understanding and practice of that particular branch.

The breach between Catholics and other groups (whether they be Protestant or not) remains and will likely always remain until such a time when the more fanatical branches depart from what is viewed as contrary to Scripture and those who take a more conservative view become more active in discussion with opposing groups. Personally, I am not one who writes off the entire Catholic Church based on several doctrinal positions I take issue with, but, I understand that just as with every group, not everyone claiming to be representative of that group actually represent the Doctrine of said group.

In regards to the issue of praying to saints and Mary, I will assume you have a more conservative view, as expressed in this post. I have spoken with those who call Mary the Co-Redemptrix, which is of course contrary to Scripture and the basic premise of salvation in Christ Jesus. Because the tradition of praying to Mary (specifically, praying to saints aside) implies more than a veneration of Mary (which I think is proper, given her role as the physical mother of Messiah) and unless carefully explained can lead to confusion which leads to hostility.

I can appreciate the explanation, yet I would suggest that prayer should always, from my view, be directed to the Lord. I do not ignore that prayer might be categorized, but for the sake of the focal point let's keep it simple: in view is Who we petition, and while we do, among the living, seek the prayers of others, when we do, their prayers also will be directed specifically to the Lord.

You might want to add imprecatory prayer to your list, by the way.

When we speak to those that have passed on, implied is an ability I do not see a basis for in Scripture. Again, when we petition prayer among the living, their prayers will also go to the Lord. While the living are exhorted to prayer, the result is that their relationship with God is increased, meaning, the Lord is not left out of the loop but is the very One each individual appeals to.

In regards to conflict with prayer to Mary or Saints, while the practice may be ancient, one of the primary basics of Scripture is to exhort men not to even imply worship of any god other than God Himself. When Israel sinned in supplication to other gods, their sin was not to turn to the only One Who could actually give aid.

Surely you have more than this as a justification for praying to Mary and the Saints.


Revelation 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


I do not see the Elders offering up the prayers of the Saints here. In fact...


Revelation 8

King James Version (KJV)

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


...it seems that the prayers of the Saints is offered up by this Angel. "All Saints" would, I would think, include the Saints which have been titled Elders, right? And these prayers come to God, with no distinction given as to having been maintained by the Elders, or intervention taken on the part of the Elders.

But I would be curious as to any other Scriptural Basis for the practice.

I can understand that, and personally don't see it as a big deal, though I myself would not engage in it. Why do that when I can directly to God?

The Old Testament presents a basic principle that approach to God was primarily through particular servants of God, Man being separated from direct contact through sin (which is a general conclusion based on the whole of Scripture, seen in retrospect). The New Testament opens the door, or rather, tears down the veil that separated man from God and provides direct approach. Seeking another Mediator other than Christ does not make sense to me, and while it can be viewed as no different than appealing to the living for prayer, the difference would be found in the expected result of the prayer. The call for us to pray for each other implies and insists on a personal relationship with God, rather than the denied access seen in previous Covenants. I do not ask others to pray for me because I feel the Lord is for some reason not going to hear me, but because I trust in the premise that they, as I, have a relationship with God.

But I am a little different than some in my prayers, I believe I can ask the Lord once about something and were done. I don't have to keep reminding Him.


Continued...

 

But it's not the same. Among the living there is a companionship in tribulation, which tribulation those who have passed on do not share. They, above anyone, have a right understanding of events as they unfold.

A question: what if you're praying to someone who has passed who was not actually saved? Can the appeal to those that do not belong to the Lord make sense?

Not really, because those I ask to pray for me, as I do, will direct their prayer to the Lord.

To make an equivalent I would have to ask, say, a family member to ask a friend...to pray for me. And when I do that, I am looking to the third party for aid. I have bestowed upon that third party a unique relationship which I am confessing...I don't have.

See what I mean?

I have never once asked someone to ask someone to pray for me.

An example might be, "Friend, will you ask the Pastor to pray for me." Should I think that the Pastor has a relationship that might be beneficial in some way that my own relationship could never achieve?

The problem for the more conservative Catholic (and I have talked to a number of them, which conversations were enjoyed) is...the fanatical and heretical Catholic. Which one better represents true Catholic Doctrine is of course a debatable (and volatile) topic.

There are "Catholics" who worship Mary. You might deny that but that is simply the case. That doesn't mean I have to categorize you with them, nor treat you as an enemy because of them (it is always best to know first what someone believes, lol), but I can't overlook their doctrine.

I say often that if some people actually knew the doctrine of their particular faith...they might be inclined to leave it.

I do not see Scripture, in part or as a whole, encouraging prayer to any but God. While it might seem a gray area, it is an issue that brings about contention among believers.

There is no third party mentioned. Each individual is exhorted to appeal to God him/herself for other men, who I might add are living. Salvation is constrained to the temporal, and it should be the primary goal of every believer in regards to Missions to seek to play a role in leading men to Christ, prayer being a primary principle in this endeavor.

Agreed.

Does Mary, or anyone in Heaven...have a better relationship with God than you? My friend, the veil has been torn in two. That veil is the Body of Christ offered up for you. It is His death by which you were brought into direct union with God through the indwelling of God.


Hebrews 10:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Again, I can understand the reasoning, and that it may seem plausible at first glance. However, it is just my view that this detracts from the great truth of our relationship with God and just how personal that is. While the Old Testament Saint had to get up, go to the Tabernacle/Temple, and ask a Priest to petition for him, the great truth I would suggest to you is that wherever you are...you're already there. No great Journey must be taken, no other source of mediation appealed to, you are the Temple of God which was made possible through the Work of Christ.

I just can't help but think that an appeal to others to appeal to God takes us in reverse in regards to our relationship with the Lord.

God bless.

 

'I just can't help but think that an appeal to others to appeal to God takes us in reverse in regards to our relationship with the Lord.'

In which case our asking other Christians to pray for us would have the same effect (if what you say is true) because to Catholic Christians it is the same thing.

I want to thank you for posting in such a respectful and non-belligerent manner. I will read a post like yours and consider the points. Some who post on threads which are expressly anti-Catholic do so in such a manner that after I see the name I ignore the post.

 

And I mentioned that in the post, and that I can understand that perspective, however, I still have to say that I see this about the same way I view those who, say, appeal to their Pastors because they feel he has a more direct line to the Lord than they do.

Isn't a basic premise of the New Testament the declaration of personal relationship with the Lord? That we have been provided a better way in which the past method of appeal through mediators has been abrogated to bring the believer directly into the presence of God?

And we also need to address those who take a more radical view in regards to Mary (as well as Saints): there are those who fall into the error of what can only be considered worship, which Scripture forbids. And again, we have to take into account that every faith ranges in doctrinal positions and that we owe it to our antagonist to understand what that individual believes and the Biblical basis for it. When I first began debating and discussing doctrine I admit I had a tendency to tell others what they believe, which led to unprofitable discussion. But just like the Media caricaturizes Christianity as a whole (howbeit they have several "brands" they like to vilify), we too sometimes force preconceptions on our antagonists trying to make them fit the mold we seek to vilify.

I have spoken with Catholics that have been very conservative in their views and take a position concerning certain doctrines of dispute that I could find no fault with. To be honest, when it comes to debating Catholics the primary issue I see as an absolute necessity is Soteriology, because all Theology centers around how one is saved and Who one is saved by. What I perceive to be error in Catholic Doctrine is actually presented in a number of systems of theology and many groups. Catholics don't have the corner on the market on doctrines I disagree with, lol.

But back to the issue at hand: I agree. I do see an equivalence between appealing to other members and appealing to Mary and saints. From my perspective, prayer as a group, as the Body, is best in the corporate atmosphere, where we come together as one (as we should be) and our appeal is as one to One, that is...God. I do not regularly ask others to pray for me because there is nothing they can ask of God that I cannot for myself approach Him with. I think that for many the thought in the back of the mind, or heart, if you will, is that they are "better Christians" and that speaks of an attributing of a pseudo holiness to another human being that I feel is non-existent. There is only One that is Holy, that is God. And while there are Christians more obedient than others, and more mature, the truth is that as the Body we all stand on an equal footing before God, our righteousness in the eternal perspective not our own, yet our relationships with God held duly accountable to each of us as individuals.

Secondly, I would again raise the issue of third party prayer and the difference between the living and those that have passed on. Our lives are, for obvious reasons, secluded to the temporal. If we are to be saved, it must be while we yet live. So too for those that pass on, when we distinguish the two primary groups, that is, God Who is Holy and Eternal...and everyone else, lol, we do not ascribe an ascension to a god-like holiness on the part of the deceased. There has been and only ever will be One God in Heaven, and that applies to the Eternal State as well. We see that even among the Angels there stood not one that ascended to the Holiness of God, that they might themselves be gods that were equivalent. Only of God can we say He is Eternal, all other beings are created with beginnings in time. To try to sum this up, in regards to third party prayer, the Lord has gone through quite a bit of trouble to not only establish a personal relationship with each person, but has given us His Word that we might better understand that...so why do we place a barrier between us?

But the truth is most people do that. All of us at some point or another have asked others to pray for us, and there's nothing wrong with that. It is a matter of the Body being one for the most part, and that we come to a place of agreement. But Lest we ascribe a standard of righteousness, or a standard of ability to someone other than the only One Who has that power, I think we should keep in mind that if we feel a brother (or sister) has a better relationship with God than we do...we need to redouble our efforts in pursuing that individual relationship which is not just a privilege, but commanded.

Hope that makes sense, lol.


God bless.

 

Just for discussion's sake, we understand God to be the God of the Living, right? Not that I am trying to justify the practice of praying to the dead, or Mary, but, just trying to point out that in regards to the dead in Christ we do not, at least I do not, equate them with the "dead" of the Old Testament. Which in the minds of some might make acknowledgment of the Saints in Heaven as still a part of the Body in the eternal sense.

Now that has to be balanced with my own view in regards to the dead and the difference between the New Covenant standard (in which men go to be with the Lord) and the Old Testament Economies (in which men still awaited the Atonement and were consigned to Sheol/Hades). Some great men of God take the position that men have always gone to be with the Lord (the Just that is) but I take the view that it was necessary that their sins be atoned for by Christ before that could take place.

I felt the explanation that the perspective that equates praying to those who have passed on is no different (in their view) than asking among the living for prayer. While we may not agree with that for whatever reason, I think we should admit that it is something that we can acknowledge as being understandable, meaning we might understand how someone might take that view.

The point here being, to raise for discussion's sake, the different intentions of Scriptural use of the term dead. For example, all men are "dead" before salvation, though they have physical life. If we interject the life Christ taught He came to bring into the Old Testament, then we have an equivalent which precludes a position for equating life and death on equal terms in both Testaments. If we view the life Christ came to bring to originate from Him, meaning it was not available prior to the Cross and Resurrection, then an argument might be made to exclude the dead in Christ from an equivalent standard of that found in Old Testament Economies.

Do you feel that the Old Testament Saint had eternal life in Christ, or do you distinguish between the Dead in Christ and the Old Testament Saint made perfect?


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


God bless.

 

BobRyan, those saints in Heaven are more alive than you or me.

 

You seem to really want to apply Old Testament ceremonial activity to New Testament believers.

Hmmmm....

Let's see what your scripture references actually say:

In reference to salvation. No mortal, sinful, corrupted man can lay down a foundation that can provide us a path to salvation. I can't do it. You can't do it. Billy Graham can't do it. The Pope can't do it. Only Jesus Christ.

These foundations are in reference to our Christian life, the fruit we bear, the self and spirit we project to those around us. This is not the salvation foundation. My salvation is not founded on the apostles. It's founded on Jesus Christ. The foundations spoken of here in Ephesians are those that help us stand and grown as a Christian family and community. We are fitly joined in service to the Lord.

This is true. There is but one God. There is one Lord (overseer over all of us), and there is one faith and one baptism.

What this means is Jesus Christ is exalted; high and lifted up. He rules over all kings (King of Kings) and oversees all Lords (Lord of Lords). In other places God is referred to as the Lord of Hosts. Don't go conflating his titles. To say there are "many Lords" opens up the door to heresies such as the "little gods."

James is all about teaching the Christian how to walk, talk, and act. He stresses here that judging others is not necessarily our places, especially if it creates within us a highmindedness that would see us exalted. Instead, James is pointing out that there is one lawgiver (God) who can both save and destroy.

Paul is stressing to the Corinthians about being overly puffed up and highminded. He is, in part, stressing to them not to be prideful in performing the tasks that the Lord has set before them, even if those tasks include acting as a judge.

I am an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ, but I don't know that I would ever say I "share in God's role" at doing something. He has called me into a work, and I should do that work. But I've never looked at it as sharing a role with God.

 

PreachTony, this is part of what I wrote as applied to: "In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others... that's mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us.... that's mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood. "

This is what I wrote about those contradictions in my post;
Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus' Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus' role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God's role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ's role as Mediator.

 

Yes, it is fine to pray for one another. James 5:16 tells us that the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. But don't confuse that with what Moses, Abraham, and Job were doing. They were under a system that required a priesthood. We know that, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ the Law has changed. A change in the Law necessitates a change in the Priesthood. No longer are we dependent on fallible man to intercede for us as a Priest. Now, thanks to Grace, Jesus Christ Himself sits on the right hand of God the Father, now as our infallible, incorruptible, perfect High Priest, making intercession for us.

 

PreachTony, they have physically died and are properly called "dead" but they are spiritually alive and worthy of receiving our requests for intercession.

You wrote: "Yes, it is fine to pray for one another. James 5:16 tells us that the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I agree with that.