Christ's return

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    I know many people dismiss the pre trib rapture because they believe in only one literal return of Christ.
    In the story of Saul on the road to Damascus, wouldn't it be truthful, at that time Christ returned "to earth" in speaking with Saul (Paul)?
     
  2. Ron Arndt

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    No, for when we take all the scriptures dealing with our Lord's return, it will be a return NOT just to ONE individual but to the WHOLE WORLD.Every eye will see him.Rev 1:7
     
  3. James_Newman

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    Perhaps the pretrib rapture is when the Lord returns and everyone does see Him? What if the Lord were visibly present in the clouds throughout the tribulation?
     
  4. eloidalmanutha

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    Jesus did not appear to Paul on the road to Damscus, he heard His voice.

    Acts 9:3 But in the going it happened! He drew near to Damascus, and suddenly a light from the heaven shone around him. 4 And falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute Me?
     
  5. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Jesus DID appear...

    And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. -- Acts 9:17
     
  6. eloidalmanutha

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    Jesus DID appear...

    And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. -- Acts 9:17
    </font>[/QUOTE]I do not believe that Paul actually "saw" Jesus - he was blinded by the Light. In the retelling of the story in Acts 22, Paul again relates the identical story of the original event - that He saw the Light and heard Jesus' voice. I believe that "appeared" in this case does not mean Jesus appeared before or to Paul, but means that Paul was in the presence of Christ because of the Light of His Glory, but Jesus was not seen by Paul. I believe that if Paul had actually seen Jesus, he would have said so.

    Acts 22: 6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
    11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
     
  7. Joshua Rhodes

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    I agree that Jesus' return will not be to one or two, but to the world. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord on that day! So the way I see it, you can bow now or bow later.
     
  8. webdog

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    The fact remains Jesus was on that road to Damascus whether Saul saw him or not. Christ did return on that day.

    So was this the rapture, since there is supposedely a one, and only one return of Christ to earth being argued by mid and post tribbies?
     
  9. Dave

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    God is omni-present so in that sense he certainly was on the road that day. He did not appear in the likeness that He is said to appear in when He returns, however. He did not appear on His throne and the clouds did not roll up as a scroll.

    Was Jesus on Patmos? John saw Him. This however was a vision and not a physical appearing. Given that Paul was the only one who heard His voice, that probably mitigates against the physical presence as it was a spiritual encounter with some physical manifestation to get Paul's attention.
     
  10. eloidalmanutha

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    Acts 9 says that Paul heard Jesus out of Heaven, that does not mean that Jesus in any way "returned". The Glory and Light shone from Jesus on Paul from Heaven.

    He is only coming back once - with the sound of the trumpet, a shout, the angels, and the saints that have gone before. All nations, all people will see Him return at that moment, and every knee will bow and acknowledge Him as Lord.
     
  11. webdog

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    God the Father did not appear...Jesus did. The Bible tells me that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He always is and always has been 100% God and 100% Man. Christ's appearing on the road to Damascus was...Christ, not God the Father (Spirit).
    Physical encounters and visions are two totally separate things.
    Paul was NOT the only one who saw Him. It most certainly was not a spiritual encounter, as being thrown from a horse is anything but.

    7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid ; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
     
  12. eloidalmanutha

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    God the Father did not appear...Jesus did. The Bible tells me that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He always is and always has been 100% God and 100% Man. Christ's appearing on the road to Damascus was...Christ, not God the Father (Spirit).
    Physical encounters and visions are two totally separate things.
    Paul was NOT the only one who saw Him. It most certainly was not a spiritual encounter, as being thrown from a horse is anything but.

    7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid ; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
    </font>[/QUOTE]They saw LIGHT - they did not see Jesus.
     
  13. webdog

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    7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth , whom thou persecutest.

    Like I said earlier, even if they didn't "physically" see Jesus, and only light, Jesus was still there amongst them.
     
  14. Dave

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    Is God the Father the only omni-present part of the Godhead? What about the Holy Spirit? He is present throughout the world within the believer's, right? Did Jesus know things that were happening outside of His immediate site when He was on earth by chance? By special communication from the Father, or because He could see them Himself? When Philip brought Nathanael to Jesus, what did he say?

    John 1:48 (KJV) "4Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee." How did He see him if He does not share the omni-present characteristic of God?

    Physical encounters and visions are two totally separate things. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes they are. My point is that the voice was probably spiritual in nature, not physical because Paul was the only one that heard it.

    They all saw a light from heaven, not Jesus. The text says that Paul heard Jesus not that he saw him. Paul later affirms this same thing. Ananias is the only possible discrepancy and I would be interested in what the underlying word is and what the possible alternate translations are.
     
  15. webdog

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    Not entirely. Mat 24:36 "Now concerning that day and hour no one knows-- neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son --except the Father only.
    Like I've already said repeatedly, regardless of whether they actually "saw" Jesus...He was there, period...on that road, on Earth.
     
  16. eloidalmanutha

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    Acts 9:3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a LIGHT FROM HEAVEN :
     
  17. Dave

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    I looked up the verse Acts 9:17 and checked Strongs for the underlying greek word for "appeared". It says:
    Given this, I think appeared could also be translated that Christ "showed Himself", which in a sense He did. Just not in a physical appearance, but rather as a voice from heaven that declared Himself to Saul.
     
  18. eloidalmanutha

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    God can speak from Heaven without being present. There is no evidence that Jesus came to earth when He spoke to Paul. God can, does, and did speak from Heaven ;)

    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
     
  19. mima

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    I enjoy the BB so much and I learn and read things that I never knew before, for example; (What if the Lord were visibly present in the clouds throughout the tribulation? ) This is a completely new idea to me and I'm not a rank neophyte in spiritual matters.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Posts: 2172
     
  20. webdog

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    Your "voice from Heaven" theory is pure speculation. Out of the light (not Heaven) came "I am Jesus Christ of Nazereth".
     

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