Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Recently the PSA thread was closed. The last post of Martin read as follows:
    If Christ ransomed all mankind, why is all mankind not saved?
    If He was purchased all mankind, why is all mankind not purchased for God?
    If God is propitiated towards all men, what does He still have against them?
    If all men have been redeemed, why is there no redemption for all men?
    If God is reconciled to all men, why is there no reconciliation for all sinners?

    You are going to say, only those 'placed in Christ' are saved, but you refuse to say what the criterion is for being so placed. Why are those not so placed not purchased, redeemed, ransomed reconciled since you say that all these things have been obtained by Christ for all men? ​
    This seems an effort to obfuscate.

    Was the result of God ransoming mankind the salvation of mankind? No, of course not. What was the result? Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

    Mankind was purchased, both those saved or to be saved, and those never to be saved. Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, and set mankind under the New Covenant.

    God is not propitiated toward all men, but is propitiated toward those He has put into Christ.

    Did anyone claim all men had been redeemed? Nope. More obfuscation.

    Does scripture say all mankind has been reconciled? Nope. God is reconciling the world, one sinner at a time when He transfers them into Christ.

    Did I "refuse to say" what the criterion is for putting someone in Christ. No. I said over and over If God credits a person's faith in the Truth as righteousness, then He puts them in Christ.

    If a person has been put into Christ, God has been propitiated toward that individual.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been redeemed.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have come to Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been given to Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been justified.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made righteous.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made alive together with Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been predestined to adoption, the redemption of their bodies.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been saved from the penalty of sin, positional sanctification.

    Propitiation = means of salvation
    Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.
    Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    So if someone puts his trust in Christ, God may or may not credit it as righteousness, is that what you're saying? What criteria does God use for that?

    The Bible says that 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved' (Joel 2:32; Romans 10:13).

    I'm trying to ascertain where your understanding (if such a word is appropriate) differs from common or garden Arminianism.
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Martin, you also said...

    {QUOTE=Martin}
    {QUOTE=Darrell C]Darrell C said:
    Receiving Christ is the Reconciliation[/QUOTE]
    There is a whole lot more than that to Reconciliation, my friend.[/QUOTE]

    ...and this is true, but the focus was specific:


    The central focus being that Reconciliation begins on an individual basis when one is born again. Rather than a view that, for example, the Elect are born reconciled to God.


    God bless.
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    Martin, rather than deny Matthew 7:21-23, accept that it is God alone who accepts or rejects our faith. Unless you agree with that, you are wasting our time. God decides who is actually "calling" on the name of the Lord.

    You should try to ascertain where your understanding (if that word is appropriate) conflicts with scripture.
     
  5. agedman

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    John states very clearly that, "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2) ("whole" means the complete, total, none left out, without any exceptions)

    I hold to the doctrines of grace thinking, HOWEVER, I find that there is no conflict with the blood being the propitiation for every person, and yet some not being redeemed by God. That is HIS choice, and part of HIS Sovereignty.

    Just as the OT blood, having been carried into the presence of the ark in a bowl, was sprinkled for all (both the Jews and the Gentiles living with the Jews at the time) irregardless of person or the heritage and estate of that person, or even the level of belief or unbelief of that person, so too, was the blood of Christ.

    As a result, many are redeemed, however, not all are redeemed.

    That is not a lack of the power of the blood, but of the ability of humankind to believe.

    For John also states, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3)

    It is the purposed and determined disbelief by those who reject and turn.

    When one stands at that final judgement, not a person will be able to claim that God was unfair by not providing a "means" or the sufficiency to be saved. Not a single person will be justified by pointing to the insufficient supply of blood shed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Not a single person will be cast into the lake of fire with a single excuse that God was not just and the justifier.

    The critical analysis of the redemption comes down to human failure to believe.

    The failure to believe is again because "men love darkness rather than light."

    God gives them what they want. He casts them into "utter darkness."
     
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  6. Van

    Van
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    Agreed, Agedman, Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all humanity. Everyone God transfers into Christ is sprinkled with His blood.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I want to know on what basis you suppose that God accepts or rejects faith. Do you believe it is according to works? Is that your misunderstanding of Matthew 7:21-23?

    You are entirely at sea in your understanding of soteriology, but before I can help you, I need to know exactly what you are believing.
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Reconciliation begins in eternity past with the Everlasting Covenant. The elect are certainly not born reconciled to God. Reconciliation must be accomplished before anyone can be made right with Him. 'God.......devises means so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him' (2 Sam. 14:14).
     
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  9. Van

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    I am really tired of your misrepresentations. I want to know if you understand that God and God alone transfers believers into Christ on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness. If you continue to refuse to answer that question, I cannot help you.

    Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all humanity. Everyone God transfers into Christ is sprinkled with His blood.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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  11. Van

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    Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice put sinful humanity under the New Covenant, with Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for mankind. When, as ambassadors of Christ we beg the lost to be reconciled to God, what is our message of reconciliation? You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity? Nope. You are unable to believe unless God bestows irresistible grace? Nope

    Must we love Him with all our heart? Yes
    Must we believe He is God the Son? Yes
    Must we believe He is the Anointed One, with the power to set us free from the penalty of sin. Yes
    Must we trust in His sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins? Yes

    God is patient, not willing for anyone to be lost, but for all people to come to the knowledge of the Truth.
    If our message of reconciliation does not proclaim the opportunity for salvation to all, our message is ... skewed.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    OK, so we're clear on two things. You don't know how or why God credits some people's faith as righteousness, while not crediting other people's faith in the same way. Nor can you explain Romans 10:13 in a way that supports your theories.
    So Christ has shed His blood as a substitute for all men, yet He hasn't because not all of them have been sprinkled with His blood.

    We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) . God the Father gave to the Son a vast crowd of people, so huge that no one can count it (Revelation 7:9-10), for Him to redeem. Of these people, He has not lost even one (John 6:39; 10:27-30; 17:2). These are His sheep and He has laid down His life for them; more than that, He has lived the life of perfect righteousness and obedience that they (we) could not live (Romans 5:19), as well as taking the punishment and dying the death that they (we) deserved to die. He, Christ, gives His sheep eternal life (John 10:27). God is reconciled to these sheep for Christ has propitiated His anger against them. There is no question of Him arbitrarily dismissing some of them and accepting others.

    As and when these people believe, as they certainly will (2 Thessalonians 2:13) because God the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to receive the word of life (Acts 16:14), God the Father justifies them, that is, He declares them righteous as Christ has paid for their sins in full, and He transfers them, not into Christ (they were given to Him in eternity past), but into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Colossians 1:12; Ephesians 2:6).

    At the end of the age, Christ will come before the Father and say, 'Here am I and the children whom God has given Me' (Hebrews 2:13). Not one will be found missing.
     
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  13. Darrell C

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    It seems as though you are trying to say two different things and make them to be the same.

    And forgive me for saying, but I think you and Van are actually on the same page in part, or at least in the same chapter.

    I think all Van is saying is that while we recognize that salvation can be viewed in the eternal as a completed effort, that doesn't mean that, as I said (and you agreed), men are born reconciled to God. In other words, we are reconciled at the time of our salvation, rather than being born having been reunited in relationship with God because we are of the Elect.

    Consider (and I know this has already come up, lol):


    2 Corinthians 5:19

    King James Version (KJV)


    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



    We can set a time in history when Christ came into the world Christophanies aside, the Body He took upon Himself for the purpose of offering Himself up to make that Sacrifice that would atone for sins (which all other sacrifices under God's provision in the Old Testament did not) itself has a beginning in time. That is, when it was created in the womb of Mary.

    Another point to consider is that it is not just the Ministry of Christ in view here, but the ministry of believers in this Age. No-one prior to the establishment had committed to them this ministry of Reconciliation, which is specific to the Gospel. The Gospel was not revealed in past Ages, and while we can, in retrospect see the Gospel all over the Old Testament, we also know that this understanding was not given men until the Spirit of God was sent in this particular ministry. In this Age we are ministers of the New Covenant, which cannot be said of a single solitary Old Testament Prophet of Priest. Because the New Covenant was established by Christ.


    I have no idea how this is relevant to the context of what was said. Joab's craftiness is exposed, lol.


    God bless.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    Martin continues to refuse to answer my question, while falsely claiming I have not answered his.
    Martin seems to think God does not credit our faith as righteousness, denying the very words of Christ, and therefore seeks to change the subject. Shuck and Jive, folk, shuck and jive.

    Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all humanity. Everyone God transfers into Christ is sprinkled with His blood.
     
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  15. Yeshua1

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    What is the BASIS of how a sinner though is given this 'crdit" by God in order to get saved...
    Does our faith in Jesus save us, or was it due to what he accomplished for them at the Cross and in the resurrection?

    And since God Himself gives faith/enales dead sinners to believe unto jesus to get saved, how is that crediting them ?
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    To repeat, our faith is worthless as a filthy rag. Only when God alone credits it as righteousness, does it provide the basis for God transferring us into Christ.

    Still waiting for any of these nameless doctrine advocates to say whether or not God puts us in Christ through faith in the truth.

    Folks, just read Romans 4:4-5 and then verse 24. They deny this whole concept.
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

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    Hello Darrell,
    I wonder if it would be better to open a new thread on 'Reconciliation' rather than using this one which is supposed to be about 'Substitution.'

    Reconciliation pre-supposes an estrangement between two parties. There will usually be an aggrieved party and an offending party, and reconciliation will involve the aggrieved party being propitiated, and the offending party coming to repentance.

    The real question is soteriology is not how guilty men and women may be brought to repentance, but how an offended God may be conciliated. 'God is a just judge; and God is angry with sinners every day' (Psalm 7:11). 'Your iniquities have separated you from your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you' (Isaiah 59:2). The broken law stands between men and God; how can God be 'just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:26)?

    2 Samuel 14:14 is a great verse to preach the Gospel from! I highly recommend it. You can contrast the wrong way to do reconciliation with the right way, namely God's way.

    Philemon is another great way to look at reconciliation and preach the Gospel. You have a wronged party (Philemon) and an offending party (Onesimus). You have a mediator (Paul) who brings the two sides together by acting as surety for Onesimus. 'But if he has wronged you, or owes anything, put that on my account.......I will repay' (Philemon 18-19).

    I leave it to you whether to open another thread.
     
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  18. Van

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    Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice put sinful humanity under the New Covenant, with Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for mankind. When, as ambassadors of Christ we beg the lost to be reconciled to God, what is our message of reconciliation? You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity? Nope. You are unable to believe unless God bestows irresistible grace? Nope

    Must we believe God raised Him from the dead? Yes
    Must we love Him with all our heart? Yes
    Must we believe He is God the Son? Yes
    Must we believe He is the Anointed One, with the power to set us free from the penalty of sin. Yes
    Must we trust in His sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins? Yes

    God is patient, not willing for anyone to be lost, but for all people to come to the knowledge of the Truth.
    If our message of reconciliation does not proclaim the opportunity for salvation to all, our message is ... skewed.
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Of course He does! Don't be so silly! Just read what I wrote above. When sinners repent and trust in Christ, God justifies them, that is, He declares them righteous.
     
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  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    No. It is our righteous works that are like filthy rags in God's sight (Isaiah 64:6). God's word concerning faith is 'everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.' This is so important that He declares it twice (Joel 2:32; Romans 10:13). God credits everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness so long as it is sincere (Jeremiah 5:2; Matthew 7:21; Romans 10:9).
     
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