Church Discipline part 2

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by donnA, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. donnA

    donnA
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    I started a separate thread because the other one is about the woman in Florida, and this is not. Theres a couple of parts to this, so...

    1. When is church discipline used, or should be used?

    For instance, when your sure of, (these are all members of your church)

    a man in the church (member) is a drug dealer

    alcohol sales are illegal here, so supose someone in the church is a boot legger(selling illegal alcohol)

    a woman is committing adultery and not doing a lot to hide it

    another person is an alcoholic and you can smell it on him, he's been arrested a few times for public drunk

    someone else is a drug addict

    someone is a perpetual gossip


    these are on going sins,people approving of a sinful lifestyle,, so what about one time sins,

    someone commits a crime and goes to jail

    a one time affair

    can't think of more....

    2. What is the churches responsibility to discipline? When should they discipline? When should they not discipline? Should disciplines be different depending on the offense?

    3. Is the church responsible to God or the members to discipline?

    4. What is the responsibility of the membership of this church?

    5. What is the purpose of discipline? And what if we don't do it?

    6. or should it all simply be over looked and do nothing.
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

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    All good questions! And I wonder what the appropiate discipline would be for specific offenses. keep in mind there are also legal ramifications for discipline. I think churches could be sued. And when it becomes a financial questions with regard to church discipline does the church lay down and let the offender continue?
     
  3. saturneptune

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    The most obvious answer is when the local church decides. In my church, it would be used when the sin is either blatant or habitual, or is bringing a bad reputation upon the church, or is of a serious enough nature it cannot be ignored. There is no exact line. Each case must be considered prayerfully. For example, things such as gossip seem to be ignored.

    In each of these cases, church discipline would be used.

    Probably, but hopefully it could be solved at one of the first two steps

    I doubt it. The gossip in our church has never reached a stage that hurt anyone, but if it did, something would be done to stop it. For example, if someone took gossip to the stage of intentionally hurting someone's reputation. Usually gossip is quiet talk in remote parts of the church, and that is the end of it


    It probably depends on what it is for. Lots of people in jail around here for contempt of court or failure to pay a traffic fine.

    What do you mean by one time affair, one meeting or an ongoing affair with one person only? Sometimes I wonder how allegations like this are proven to the point the church knows they are true. I have seen in my life reputations destroyed by again, gossip about this person and that person, and they turned out not to be true.

    can't think of more....

    Again, that is up to the local church. We all sin, and if we were disciplined for everything, there would be no members. The sin adultry keeps coming up again and again. In the eyes of God, how many are guilty of this because of rerunning thoughts through the mind.

    yes

    To carry out discipline if it reaches the third step

    The purpose of discipline is corrective, not punitive. Aside from that, it is forgiveness, repentence, and restoration.

    No, and I do not believe anyone ever hinted at that in the other thread.
     
  4. superwoman8977

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    Well according to the answers in this thread I would be burned at the stake! I dont believe a church needs to put their nose in personal business of a churchmember period. No one is perfect and there are people that so forget that.
     
  5. saturneptune

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    Well, this is refreshing. Its the first time in the two threads I have been accused of being too strict on church discipline.
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

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    I disagree Gossip always hurts.
     
  7. saturneptune

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    That is true. It is impractical to walk up to each and every conversation and judge what is being said. It would be obvious if it hit a level that our church would take action. If you feel that way, then at your next business meeting, make a recommendation to your local church to handle gossip the way you see fit. See if your church passes it, and if it does, enforce it.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    I will and your suggestion is timely because we have a business meeting tonight. Though as they see fit may already be enforced which is ignore it until it affects the whole body.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    I believe that a member of a church should be disciplined when he brings discredit to the church or reproach to the name of Jesus Christ.

    An example of such discipline is presented in 1 Corinthians 5: 1-5

    1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
    2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
    4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    The Apostle even gives the objective of the discipline. For true believers: for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If a person is not a true believer he should not be a member.

    For many years people have used the phrase "Judge not that you be not judged" as an excuse to overlook any behavior regardless how bad. The Apostle Paul sees it differently. He further gives instructions to church members as to how they are to treat those members living in sin.

    9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
    10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
    11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

    13. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


    According to Scripture we are called on to judge those who are members of the church. It is God's prerogative to judge the unbelievers.

    It should be noted that in Baptist churches discipline, even exclusion, does not have a negative impact on one's salvation. In Roman Catholic churches excommunication has the effect of denying salvation.
     
  10. gb93433

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  11. annsni

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    Then you are disobeying the direct teaching of Scripture. 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18 are quite clear.

    I'm sorry you disagree with that but it doesn't mean that you are right.

    As a matter of fact, a church that does not practice church discipline when necessary is not a valid church IMO. They are a club.
     
  12. annsni

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    Each one of these should be dealt with according to Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5.


    These are also situations where full church discipline would take place but most likely the person would be willing to be restored to full fellowship. That would have to take place under a discipleship situation, IMO. Where there is an accountability partner who will help this person through an obvious struggle. Actually, if in any case a person is repentant and willing to be restored, then there should be an accountability set up. That is how we can grow in Christ.

    A church's responsibility to discipline is given by God. It is commanded in Scripture and so they must follow the directive.

    When: as soon as possible
    When not? Never
    Different depending on offense? Not according to Scripture.

    The church is responsible to God and responsible for the members.

    To accept the discipline as if it were from the Lord. To seek Him to see if there is truly sin in their lives and if so, to repent. Remember David when he was faced with his sin? He didn't deny it - nor did he run away from it. He tore his clothing and repented of what he did.

    The purpose of discipline is to help a brother or sister to identify a sin and to work through repentance of it. It is also there to protect the rest of the body of Christ by not allowing sin to fester and grow in the fellowship. If we do not do it, we are not using Scripture as we should - for "reproof, correction and for training in righteousness". How are we to correct and reproof if we don't utilize church discipline?

    A church that does this is in grave error, IMO. I've seen a number of churches brought down by ignoring open sin in their congregation - and seen followers of Christ grow lukewarm. I've seen outsiders declare "hypocrite" which is a very apt label in a case of a church not utilizing church discipline.
     
  13. gb93433

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    I can remember when a young man who was a member of the church I was attending and started handing out anti-Christian literature. The pastors and many among the leadership met with the young man. In the end the young man persisted and continued to hand out literature.

    Finally the pastor had no choice but to announce the young man's removal from the church until he repented.

    That young man stopped handing out literature and we never saw him again.

    So are you suggesting that the principles of Matthew 18 should have never be exercised and that young man should have been allowed to persist and the leadership continue to allow such practice and take no stand against it?

    Are you saying that the church should have allowed the young man in 1 Corinthians 5 to continued to allow him to shack up with his step mother?

    I teach at a university and if a student continued to disrespect me after being warned I would ask him to leave. I warn them that if they cheat on anything they wil be asked to leave and failed.

    Are you are saying that it is okay for someone to disrespect the bride of Christ-the church and just let that person continue to do so?
     
  14. gb93433

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    I preached in a church on gossip and realized that many did not know what gossip was simply because it had been so much of a part of their lives. They had read gossip in the newspapers belittling other Christians that they thought that kind of language and demeanor was okay because it was "normal".
     
  15. annsni

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    It's so true. Gossip is a pet sin for so many and I know I'm addressing it with my 16 year old and her friends right now because it is RAMPANT amongst the teens. The youth pastor plans to speak on it this week because it's getting ridiculous. I've been teaching my daughter to confront those who are gossiping and bring it right to their attention and TELL them that it's gossip. Some of the kids get it and some don't. The worst is that the IMing really can spread it like wildfire. :( Unfortunately, it's my daughter and her boyfriend who are getting the brunt of it right now but they're really learning a good lesson about it. EVERYTHING is gossip nowadays and it's hard to realize what should and shouldn't be said. But it's a skill we all need to learn and this is where the older woman teaches the younger woman (and I'd say the older men teach the younger men too).
     
  16. gb93433

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    When I was in college I heard one of the leaders in the church speak on gossip and tell how he would ask someone if they minded if the person talk to the person rather than talk about him. That kind of language puts a stop to gossip very quickly.
     
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    I personally think churches should reinstitute the flogging for people who gossip. There's not enough flogging in churches today. Mores the pitty. :tear:
     
  18. gb93433

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    It has been in place for a long time. They have the pastor for lunch.
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    That sounds almost Catholic! :laugh: (I hope everyone knows I'm just kidding here)
     
  20. gb93433

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    Probably more catholic than we can imagine.
     

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