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Church Fathers

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Dec 28, 2004.

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  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Here is another interesting quote by Jerome:

    " But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin."

    Where do they get this junk?
     
    #21 Ps104_33, Dec 31, 2004
  2. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Ps104_33
    "that Tertullian was not considered a Church Father By the RCC and he was eventually excommunicated. Any truth to this?"
    "
    The second part is true, the first not as far as I know.
    Tertullianus is on the list of churchfathers, because of his earlier writings.
     
    #22 mioque, Dec 31, 2004
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    One of the things I like about the church fathers is to read about how they dealt with issues and interpreted scripture. One of the advantages of history is that we get a picture of the doctrine they held and then later get the picture of its result. That by itself ought to help us understand the outcome of our interpretation and choices.
     
    #23 gb93433, Dec 31, 2004
  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    There is no proof that Tertullian was excommunicated; it's not even certain that he officially broke with the church when he joined the Montanists.

    Many of his writings are on the official list of patristic works.
     
    #24 rsr, Dec 31, 2004
  5. grace56

    grace56 Guest

    For almost 400 years there were many different books considered to be scripure by the early church. Some were included in the New Testement cannon and some were not. Just like there were many different people with ideas that were not of Christ, just like today.
    If someone taught anything that the Jesus then the Apostles didn't teach they were sent away.

    grace56
     
    #25 grace56, Dec 31, 2004
  6. MIZ83

    MIZ83 New Member

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    That is why I said that I focus on the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I believe that false doctrines did develop "as the Church got farther from the source of her teachings." The council of Nicea was over 200 years down the road from the last apostle. After that, I don't think there is much value to church history in determining what the apostolic faith was. It is useful, however, to see its continued development in understanding who we are and how we got there.

    I think it is a big mistake to discount the early Christian writings as evidence. Only one of your quotations was from the Ante-Nicene Fathers. His quotation doesn't indicate the worship of Mary, although perhaps some errant speculation on his part. The other quotations are nearly 3 centuries after the last apostle.

    Do you believe that all N.T. practice and belief vanished after the death of the last apostle?

    Blessings,

    Bob
     
    #26 MIZ83, Dec 31, 2004
  7. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    "sola scriptura"

    The Word of God abides forever. The corrupted writings of men will not abide. Why do we seek truth in the corrupted writings of men?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #27 Bro. James, Jan 3, 2005
  8. MIZ83

    MIZ83 New Member

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    Bro James,

    Answer honestly, now. Do you own any Bible commentaries, dictionaries, or lexicons? Or how about a Bible with notes?

    Blessings,

    Bob
     
    #28 MIZ83, Jan 3, 2005
  9. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    In my library:

    Many English Bible translations including Duay-Confraternity and a New World Translation; also a Spanish translation.

    Lots of history books by many authors. Also lots of cultic writings--know your enemy before you go to battle.

    Greek, Latin and Hebrew grammars--several.

    Several analytical lexicons, English and Greek.

    Many dictionaries of English, French, German, Spanish.

    Most of these references are used to "study to show approval unto God a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

    None of the study helps are inspired or on an equality with the Word of God in any form or fashion. The opinions of corrupted man are exactly that-- opionions--subject to error.

    The Word of God is without error--It is also not subject to debate.

    The only authority is: "Thus saith the Lord".

    "Let God be found true and every man a liar."

    Selah,

    Bro. James

    [ January 03, 2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
     
    #29 Bro. James, Jan 3, 2005
  10. MIZ83

    MIZ83 New Member

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    Bro James,

    We agree that the Bible is our authority. I don't consider the Ante-Nicene Fathers authoritative. I do consider them to be persuasive evidence. Is there any difference between reading their writings and reading other references? I use them to "study to show...."

    We all come to the text with a history of interpretation coloring the way we see things. I choose to consciously consider history, that of the religious movement of which I am a part, and that of the earliest Christians. I think that helps one to identify one's own biases and be more objective reading the text.

    Blessings,

    Bro Bob
     
    #30 MIZ83, Jan 3, 2005
  11. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Ante-Nicene/Post Nicene--

    Is all corrupted by the Holy See--which cannot "see" past Nicea anyway.

    I read such writings as well as papal bulls, council proceedings, catechisms etc, etc,--as proof that the wolves in sheep's clothing have left a trail through history--so has The Bride--The Lamb's Wife--she is undefiled--the pseudo-bride has the blood of the saints on her hands.

    My basic paradigm: all writings of men are corrupted by man's depraved nature. The writings of men cannot be compared to Scripture in any manner. Sola scriptura.

    "Let God be found true and every man a liar."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #31 Bro. James, Jan 3, 2005
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