Church goals

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Harold Garvey, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey
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    Our pastor has set a goal for our church to become debt free in the near future. I am all for being debt free.

    The goal is to be met in the near future. This will cause many of us to sacrifice greatly. I believe in sacrifice.

    The mentality behind this idea of sacrificing is we all may not be able to give the same amount, but we all should make the same sacrifice. I agree.

    The pastor is really driving the point home about giving towards this goal. I am all for meeting the goal.

    In the area of sacrifice, I believe that some already sacrifice as much if not more than those who have "things". Should they give even more sacrificially to meet the demands of equal sacrifice?

    It seems the spiritual needs of the church are being overlooked in his effort to meet this goal. About 75% of his sermons are on giving lately, the other 15% are on the Gospel alone and 10% on the spiritual aspect of being a christian.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Tom Bryant

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    have you spoken to your pastor?
     
  3. Harold Garvey

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    yes, and it doesn't do much good to talk to him. he always turns the tables on this subject and says stuff like, "What, you don't want the church to be debt free?":laugh:

    I believe he is shortchanging the Gospel
     
  4. drfuss

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    Years ago, we were in a church which was raising money for the building fund. The issue of how much different people should sacrifice was unofficially discussed among the members. It turns out there were two groups of people who had different ideas about what sacrifice meant.

    One group practiced a lower standard of living like: not buying new cars every few years, not going on expensive vacations, having smaller houses, etc. This group had saved money for retirement and to pass it on to the their children.

    The other group practiced a high standard of living like: new cars every couple of years, expensive vacations, living on high balance credit cards, large houses, etc. Of course this group had not saved any money.

    The high standard of living group thought it was bad that the other group did not give from their savings accounts. Of course, the high standard of living group was not willing to lower their standard of living to support the building program.

    My point is that when you consider how much people should sacrifice for the church, it means different things to different people.
     
  5. preachinjesus

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    I'm not at your church, thus I can't speak authoritatively about the situation. I would work out your arguments here and then confront him again.

    When a pastor begins speaking about money nearly all the time he is squandering (imho) the calling and commission of the pulpit. Also, his priorities are out of whack.

    I'd reply: "Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing. Why do we have to pay it off so soon?"
    or
    "Have we taken advantage of historically low interest rates to refinance?"
    or
    "If you're so serious about it have you considered a pay cut?" (a legitimate question)
    or
    "I'm all for paying off debt but am more for preaching Christ crucified first and let the chips fall where they may."

    Also, now that you have confronted him privately it might be time to talk to someone else and begin the discipline process. He might change his tune if, done biblically, he is confronted.

    Hope I'm not stepping too deep.:thumbs:
     
  6. gb93433

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    If a church always starts out debt free then it will always be debt free if it never borrows any money.
     
  7. abcgrad94

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    It sounds like your pastor has a burden to see the church free from debt so it can focus on more important matters. Perhaps he sees other areas where the church needs to grow and that cannot happen with a debt hanging over everyone's heads.

    When our tiny church (less than 30) needed about $70,000 worth of repairs, we did not get a loan. Instead, we started a building fund and began giving and praying that God would meet the need. He did, and it was a big miracle that boosted our faith as a church. So, don't be too hard on your pastor. Sounds like he has a vision for the church and is trying to get the people on board. Encourage him, pray for him, and try not to criticize. A little bit of complaining and criticizing goes a long way to discourage a pastor, and a little bit of faith and appreciation goes a long wayto make his burden lighter, too.
     
  8. Shortandy

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    If this is point of great concern for you then go to your pastor and give him the chance to defend himself. But it doesn't seem to me like something you need to worry about at this point. IF the vision that God has put on his heart is about debt then naturally his sermons are going to deal with money. This should only last for a season mind you.

    I would also get you to consider that Christ spoke more about money than He did heaven or hell. Im not saying that money is more important than the Gospel so please don't take it that way. I am just pointing out that Jesus even took the time to challenge people about finances.
     
  9. sag38

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    Are his sermons doctrinally incorrect? Are the un-Biblical? If not, then I would advise you to be careful in your opposition. After all he is the pastor. He is not ultimately responsible to you concerning what he preaches or doesn't preach. He is ultimately responsible to God. If the pastor is wrong then God will make that abundantly clear in His time and in His way. In the meantime, support him. Because, if he is right and you opposed him then you will be wrong. If the pastor is wrong and you opposed him in this, when God shows the truth, you will both be wrong. However, if you support him, and it turns out the pastor was wrong, you will be in a position to help him, to lift him up, and possibly used of God to help point him in the right direction. If he was right all along, and you supported him, you will both be blessed.
     
  10. tinytim

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    YOu can tell what is in a person's heart by looking at their checkbook...

    That is the modern day's version of

    Where your heart is that's where your treasure will be.


    I agree with ABCGrad.. It sounds like God is working through your pastor.
    And if you are practicing sacrificial giving, then good for you. Give as God directs, and sit comfortably knowing that the Pastor's sermons are not hitting you.

    Usually the ones that complain are the ones under conviction.
     
  11. sag38

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    Throw a rock in a pack of dogs. The one who howls the loudest is the one who was hit. Preach on giving and the ones who howl are generally the one's whose toes were crushed.
     
  12. Alive in Christ

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    In my view any time a pastor is preaching on giving that much he is SEVERELY out of balance, and he should be spoken to by the deacons, or whoever else he might by accountable to.

    Regarding the financial situation, just open up an account dedicated to getting out of debt...let people designate their freewill offerings for that purpose...then trust God.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Preaching heavily on giving for periods of time is not necessarily out of balance. If that goes for extended periods to be a prevailing practice then something is wrong. The word of God says we are a slave to those we are in debt to. And we do not know all the details as to why the Pastor has such a current focus on debt. But getting out of debt is never a bad idea and certainly is scriptural. If you have concern about what the Pastor is doing and he will not change as a result of your discussion then pray fro him and yourself until God changes one of you. If your heart is sincere then you will see a clear answer to this situation form God.
     
  14. gb93433

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    That is true if you hit a dog with a stone. Are you suggesting that there are a lot of dogs where you have preached?

    The health-wealth preachers like to preach on giving and people give to them because ignorant and greedy people can easily be manipulate into thinking that by giving they are doing God a favor.

    Take a look at how often giving is taught in the Bible. What would you think if a preacher taught that same percentage on giving?

    Read the autobiography of George Mueller and notice how he trusted God for finances for the orphanages then compare that to your presupposition.

    My wife were married in a church that trusted God for its finances and never once paid one penny in interest. In our 14 years of being in that church I can only remember a sermon on giving once.They have always had an abundance of leadership and have never owed anyone anything at the end of any year since it began in 1938. That church did not have a practice of passing the plate. There were boxes at the door if you wanted to give. Fifty percent of the money they received was given to missions. In the 1950s they were given a conference grounds and have never owed anything on it. About ten years ago they gave it away to let a board of men from a number of churches in the area decide what was best for the conference grounds. Today is has all but one new building on it.

    Sometime take a look at Hume Lake Christian camps (http://www.humelake.org/content/in_history.php). That place was bought by faith. I personally worked with two of the men who started that conference grounds. They were just average working people like most Christians

    People are compelled to give is they are growing Christians. I have never seen one case where those who are being discipled and those who are making discipes do not give.

    The point is that if you take care of God's people they will take care of you and everything else. They are compelled.
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    And they say there are no dumb questions.:rolleyes:
     
  16. Harold Garvey

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    :laugh: You'd be real surprised at how much we've given, but you'd be even more surprised at the amount of money taken in for special needs as far as the church property goes. I know his "vision" and it is more recreational than spiritual as far as church property goes.

    This debt could have been paid off before alot of other things were done and the interest we'd saved could have been applied to the principle and we'd saved about $20,000 in the last ten years!

    It seems "appearances" matter more than just plain horse sense.

    We are debt free as a family. I agree the church should always be debt free. The building fund wasn't getting much deposited into it so I guess this is a "drive" to get this debt out of the way, but have you ever heard of beating something to death!?

    I want to grow spiritually. I don't have any problem giving sacrificially. God is a perfect record keeper and he knows all about that.

    My concern is not about the "grandest appearance" on the block but about the spiritual condition of the church and how the public views that aspect than rather how they view the church property.
     
  17. gb93433

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    Take a look at how often giving is taught in the Bible. What would you think if a preacher taught that same percentage on giving?
     
  18. Harold Garvey

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    Ok, scenario:

    Family #1 has four children, nice meager income and decent house
    they tithe and give special offerings, support missions and give until it "hurts"

    Family #2 has a good income, nice cars,extrvavgant vacations, tithe, give sacrificially, support missions, give special gifts, have alternate incomes,but they give alot more in dollars than family #1, they never "hurt"

    #1 speaks up #2 sits back and grins: who's the dog?

    careful now, I am an accountant!:smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. gb93433

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    Is it possible for either of them to understand giving until it hurts?
     
  20. Magnetic Poles

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    Bizarre philosophy, but what I would expect. Someone who is wrong should be corrected, not supported.
     

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