Church in the wilderness

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by HankD, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. HankD

    HankD
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    I inquired concerning this passage in another thread and there was no response.

    Acts 7
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
    39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
    40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
    41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
    42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

    The AV has the “church” in the wilderness in verse 38 then equates it with the “house of Israel” in verse 42.

    Other translations have “assembly” or “congregation” such as the NKJV and NASB.
    The koine is ekklesia.

    I realize that certain KJVO will by innuendo accuse me of being lost (or worst), or won’t answer or issue another rant but:

    Is “church” the best word for this context?

    Why or why not?

    Is the house of Israel a "church"?

    Were the KJV translators influenced by their Anglo-Catholic theology with this choice?

    HankD
     
  2. HankD

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    The connection:

    KJV Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    KJV Psalm 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

    LXX Psalm 22:22 I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I sing praise to thee.

    Church = ekklesia in the LXX.

    BTW, the KJV translators used the Septuagint version of Psalm 22:22 in Hebrews 2:12 which changes the text of the Hebrew Masora "praise thee" to "sing praises to".

    HankD
     
  3. rsr

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    Stop being so bothersome, Hank. "Ekklhsia" is one of the words that the KJV translators chose to translate into "church" language; at least in this case (unlike the Easter reference) they were consistent.
     
  4. HankD

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    My point exactly.

    HankD
     
  5. HankD

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    Not in these cases (granted they weren't churches in the sense that we know them but neither was the nation of Israel).

    Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

    Acts 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. {lawful: or, ordinary}

    Acts 19:40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse. 41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

    Don't hold your breath waiting.

    HankD
     
  6. michelle

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    Instead of doubting God's words (IMHO), and looking for errors (which seems to be what you occupy your time here doing), why not study the words of the Lord, and let HIM give you understanding? Are you that concerned about sowing doubt in our hearts concerning the words of God? If you are, your efforts will be in vain.
    We are already convicted of this truth, and no one can take that away from us because it is HE who has shown/revealed it to us.

    Mark 4

    10. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
    11. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    12. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
    13. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
    14. The sower soweth the word.
    ...
    20. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


    Luke 8

    4. And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
    5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
    6. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
    7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
    8. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
    10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
    11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
    .....

    15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
    16. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
    17. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
    18. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

    John 15

    1. I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    2. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
    10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
    12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    John 10
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30. I and my Father are one.

    John 14
    17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 16
    13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  7. rsr

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    Sorry for the error, Hank. Seems like the translators picked and chose as they saw fit. Imagine that.

    Ultimately, Michelle will post the entire Bible in support of her untenable position, and we heathens will have to just sort through it for enlightenment. Seems like she had never defended the "Easter" translation, though.

    Not surprised.
     
  8. HankD

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    The KJV translators themselves looked for and found errors in their work which is witnessed by the several revisions [1611 through 1769] issued by these "bible correctors".

    How did they know to make the corrections? They looked at the source documents in the original languages of the Greek and Hebrew. The Word of God.

    "being the tongues wherein God was pleased to speak to his Church by the Prophets and Apostles"

    THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER Preface to the King James Version 1611.

    HankD
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    Hank,

    ALL rational people who have made even a little study of the Authorized Version know that it is beset with difficulties. Those who argue that it is not need our prayers rather than our data.
     
  10. HankD

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    Yes, I know and I do.

    HankD
     
  11. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    ALL rational people who have made even a little study of the Authorized Version know that it is beset with difficulties. Those who argue that it is not need our prayers rather than our data.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Generations of believers had no reason to doubt as now you seem to. You must ask yourself why. Why NOW do you and others doubt, when no one had reason to before in the churches? Gen.3:1

    It stems from the apostacy of "Rationalism", to which is the source and beginnings of the mv's and to which is the "fruit" that it is bearing.

    Since you desire to approach God's words in a "rational" manner, how have you "rationalized" what ARE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES for you? Which one is your final authority in ALL MATTERS OF FAITH AND PRACTICE? If you say all, then please explain to me, how this can be so, if you have found errors in the HOLY SCRIPTURES? And if you believe they ALL HAVE ERRORS, then how then can any of them be YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY? Is your FINAL AUTHORITY in error? How then do you compensate? Has the Lord convicted your heart of this? And if so, please provide your scriptural support for this understanding.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  12. superdave

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    My final authority in matters of faith and practice (unlike yours) is the Holy Bible. Revealed to me in several translations from the original languages, that have been faithfully transmitted to me by the providential preservation of 5000 manuscripts of the Bible in part or in whole, and in the accurate and rational translation of those words and thoughts into English words and thoughts that accurately convey the meanings intended by the author to me. Various printings and revisions of these documents vary in their accuracy, and in the quality of their presentation, but a careful student of God's Word is easily able to determine the actual Words of God from a study of several English versions, and can also with the right study tools and very little training, verify the underlying Greek or Hebrew words that were the basis of the translations. No reason for doubt on any area of doctrine. The major versions that are true translations have no errors of fact. Translation by its very nature is an imperfect science, and depends highly on the skill and theological bias of the translator. The Scriptures are clear about their own accuracy and truth, a testament to one of God's attributes, self-justification.

    2Ti 2:15 [KJV] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    2Ti 3:16-17 [KJV] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    The Message Bible smacks this one out of the park, it uses the literal tranlsation of the word qeopneustov

    2Ti 3:16 [MSG] Every part of Scripture is God-breathed...

    1Pe 1:23-25 [ESV] since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever." And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

    1Co 14:36 [ESV] Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?

    1Th 2:13 [KJV] For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    1Th 2:13 [ESV] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

    Heb 4:12 [KJV] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Rev 1:1-2 [KJV] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    BTW, none of the dudes that penned these words had heard of King James, and in many cases, did not have physical copies of what they referred to as the word of God. They still had confidence in it. How much more blessed are we.

    I believe the Bible not because of some "feeling" that I can't accurately describe or communicate to you, but because of the promises in the word of God
     
  13. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    My final authority in matters of faith and practice (unlike yours) is the Holy Bible. Revealed to me in several translations from the original languages, that have been faithfully transmitted to me by the providential preservation of 5000 manuscripts of the Bible in part or in whole, and in the accurate and rational translation of those words and thoughts into English words and thoughts that accurately convey the meanings intended by the author to me. Various printings and revisions of these documents vary in their accuracy, and in the quality of their presentation, but a careful student of God's Word is easily able to determine the actual Words of God from a study of several English versions, and can also with the right study tools and very little training, verify the underlying Greek or Hebrew words that were the basis of the translations. No reason for doubt on any area of doctrine. The major versions that are true translations have no errors of fact. Translation by its very nature is an imperfect science, and depends highly on the skill and theological bias of the translator. The Scriptures are clear about their own accuracy and truth, a testament to one of God's attributes, self-justification.
    --------------------------------------------------

    It is sad you had to put yourself under all of that, instead of believing first what God had said about it, and believing he already has given to you 100%.

    You have basically stated your final authority concerning this matter is from your own "self" judgement, and I say this based upon your statement:
    --------------------------------------------------
    accurate and rational translation of those words and thoughts into English words and thoughts
    --------------------------------------------------
    and....

    this reveals also that you have started FIRST with doubt and reliance upon men, rather than God's providence, power and care concerning his words (Psalm 12).This also reveals the confusion caused from your doubt, which leads you to an unbiblical and false conclusion :
    --------------------------------------------------
    No reason for doubt on any area of doctrine. The major versions that are true translations have no errors of fact. Translation by its very nature is an imperfect science, and depends highly on the skill and theological bias of the translator.

    .....

    also with the right study tools and very little training, verify the underlying Greek or Hebrew words

    --------------------------------------------------

    Where is your faith and trust first in God concerning this manner? And who revealed these things to you? Does God cause you to doubt what he has given to you? (Gen.3:1)Nor does Gods' words of truth have standing errors in them, or the biases of men, otherwise, they are not God's words of truth.(2 Cor.6)

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  14. robycop3

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    Michelle:Instead of doubting God's words (IMHO), and looking for errors (which seems to be what you occupy your time here doing), why not study the words of the Lord, and let HIM give you understanding?

    Seems as if He's given Hank understanding that there are some inaccuracies and denominational influences within a certain English BV.


    Are you that concerned about sowing doubt in our hearts concerning the words of God? If you are, your efforts will be in vain.

    Yes, for a KJVO, such efforts are generally in vain. But for the person who's really interested in learning all he/she can learn about god's word, these efforts can be quite helpful.


    We are already convicted of this truth, and no one can take that away from us because it is HE who has shown/revealed it to us.

    Yes, some people are stuck so deep in the "mud" of a false doctrine that not even a tank can pull them out.
     
  15. robycop3

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    Michele:Generations of believers had no reason to doubt as now you seem to. You must ask yourself why. Why NOW do you and others doubt, when no one had reason to before in the churches? Gen.3:1[/i]

    Because now, more people than ever have access to more scriptural mss than ever before. People can now find out these things for themselves instead of merely depending upon some translators or clerics being right.

    It stems from the apostacy of "Rationalism", to which is the source and beginnings of the mv's and to which is the "fruit" that it is bearing.

    It stems from BEING CORRECT.

    Since you desire to approach God's words in a "rational" manner, how have you "rationalized" what ARE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES for you? Which one is your final authority in ALL MATTERS OF FAITH AND PRACTICE?

    Which of the Four Gospels is correct? they're all different from each other.


    If you say all, then please explain to me, how this can be so, if you have found errors in the HOLY SCRIPTURES? And if you believe they ALL HAVE ERRORS, then how then can any of them be YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY?

    Because what we read in our language are imperfect translations(although they're ususally perfect as men can make them) of God's perfect word. They come out as God wills.


    Is your FINAL AUTHORITY in error? How then do you compensate? Has the Lord convicted your heart of this? And if so, please provide your scriptural support for this understanding.

    The Lord has allowed us to see His word in the forms he's chosen, as close to the very originals as He wills. He's allowed more people than ever before to see His word in its oldest extant forms. And if you're correctly "dividing his word", you'll address the booboos within a given translation and admit they exist instead of trying to rationalize them(You accuse US of rationalism??) and wishing they'd go away or we'd be quiet about them.
     
  16. robycop3

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    Michelle:It is sad you had to put yourself under all of that, instead of believing first what God had said about it, and believing he already has given to you 100%.

    The first English-language Bible made entirely from some Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic mss is the Tyndale's Bible. He gave his life to spread this version among the English-speaking world. If you're insisting on using "what God forst gave us", you should use only the Tyndale's Bible.

    Later English Bibles were different from it. For example, they have the word 'begotten' in John 3:16. This word is NOT in Tyndale's John 3: 16. (No, the later BVs didn't "alter" the Tyndale; it still reads the same. The later versions are DIFFERENT from Tyndale's & from each other.)

    Is Tyndale's Bible the word of God or not? By whose authority did anyone make a different English Bible? Why aren't you using Tyndale's Bible since it was the first complete English translation, and you tell us you use what God's already provided?
     
  17. michelle

    michelle
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    --------------------------------------------------

    Later English Bibles were different from it. For example, they have the word 'begotten' in John 3:16. This word is NOT in Tyndale's John 3: 16. (No, the later BVs didn't "alter" the Tyndale; it still reads the same. The later versions are DIFFERENT from Tyndale's & from each other.)
    --------------------------------------------------


    To which is why God saw fit to correct it. Now you would all have us to believe, that God has changed his mind. Not so, as Gods word is still alive and known within the churches.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  18. superdave

    superdave
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    *******************
    But you are saying that God changed his mind in 1611? OK, I suppose, none of the rest of your position adds up either.

    And yes, God's word is still alive and known within the churches, I have several copies of it myself, a privilege most of the human authors did not have, nor most believers for thousands of years, and yet, they spoke as if they had confidence in the Word, and knew what it was. HMMMM,
    *******************
     
  19. superdave

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    --------------------------------------------------
    My final authority in matters of faith and practice (unlike yours) is the Holy Bible. Revealed to me in several translations from the original languages, that have been faithfully transmitted to me by the providential preservation of 5000 manuscripts of the Bible in part or in whole, and in the accurate and rational translation of those words and thoughts into English words and thoughts that accurately convey the meanings intended by the author to me. Various printings and revisions of these documents vary in their accuracy, and in the quality of their presentation, but a careful student of God's Word is easily able to determine the actual Words of God from a study of several English versions, and can also with the right study tools and very little training, verify the underlying Greek or Hebrew words that were the basis of the translations. No reason for doubt on any area of doctrine. The major versions that are true translations have no errors of fact. Translation by its very nature is an imperfect science, and depends highly on the skill and theological bias of the translator. The Scriptures are clear about their own accuracy and truth, a testament to one of God's attributes, self-justification.
    --------------------------------------------------

    It is sad you had to put yourself under all of that, instead of believing first what God had said about it, and believing he already has given to you 100%.

    *******************
    I thought I made it clear that I did. Read the scripture I posted, no man has made a perfect copy or translation of themselves. The Holy Spirit has providentially protected the Word
    *******************

    You have basically stated your final authority concerning this matter is from your own "self" judgement, and I say this based upon your statement:
    --------------------------------------------------
    accurate and rational translation of those words and thoughts into English words and thoughts
    --------------------------------------------------
    and....

    this reveals also that you have started FIRST with doubt and reliance upon men, rather than God's providence, power and care concerning his words (Psalm 12).This also reveals the confusion caused from your doubt, which leads you to an unbiblical and false conclusion :

    ************************
    Nope, Read the scripture I postedI cannot rely upon man for accuracy or truth, scripture is clear
    ************************

    --------------------------------------------------
    No reason for doubt on any area of doctrine. The major versions that are true translations have no errors of fact. Translation by its very nature is an imperfect science, and depends highly on the skill and theological bias of the translator.

    .....

    also with the right study tools and very little training, verify the underlying Greek or Hebrew words

    --------------------------------------------------

    Where is your faith and trust first in God concerning this manner? And who revealed these things to you? Does God cause you to doubt what he has given to you? (Gen.3:1)Nor does Gods' words of truth have standing errors in them, or the biases of men, otherwise, they are not God's words of truth.(2 Cor.6)

    ************************
    Read the scripture I posted I have no doubts, why do you doubt that my Bible is the word of God? I am not the one with doubts. Has God caused you to doubt his words? The faith I have is placed in the fact that God's word will always be true, you are casting doubt on the very words of God, and abandoning Biblical Authority.


    I can sum up my response with this Read the scripture I posted
    ***********************
     
  20. HankD

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    This is wrong for two reasons. First, the Puritans and Dissenters (our spiritual forefathers) did not approve AT ALL of the KJV and at their own peril they said so. The Church of England persecuted and imprisoned many of them. Many fled to America with their Geneva Bibles. Second, "doubt" is the wrong word in your oblique accusation against your brother. Unless of course the KJV translators "doubted" their very selves in that they and the scholastic sector found and reported "errors" both of translation and typography to them which they spent over 190 years correcting.

    The proper phrase is "care and concern" on the part of both the translators and the Puritans/Dissenters (in their own divers ways) so as to give the general public the best translation of the Word of for the given period of Elizabethan-Jacobean English.

    HankD
     

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