Church, Israel, or Both?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Does this passage in Jeremiah 31 pertain to the church, to Israel (the Jews), or both?

    Please note that the covenant is a new covenant and that it is forever.

    A New Covenant - taken from Jeremiah 31 (NASB):

    27 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. 28 As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.
    29 “In those days they will not say again,
    ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
    And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

    30 But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
    31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
    35 Thus says the Lord,
    Who gives the sun for light by day
    And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
    Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
    The Lord of hosts is His name:
    36 “If this fixed order departs
    From before Me,” declares the Lord,
    “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”

    37 Thus says the Lord,
    “If the heavens above can be measured
    And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
    Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
    For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

    38 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.”​
     
  2. preachinjesus

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    The Church is the True Israel.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    :applause::thumbsup:
     
  4. agedman

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    "the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

    Isn't this rather specific?

    Are ALL believers "Jews?"
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Is a 49:1-8
     
  6. agedman

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    This part of Isaiah (49:1-8) is about the "hidden" messiah, that will rule Israel.

    Is the church Israel?

    Look at this section:
    "To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    I will also make You a light of the nations
    So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
    Does not this indicate two different groups:
    The first is the "tribes of Jacob" the Israelite folks - those "restored" and "preserved ones of Israel."
    The second those in whom God has given because of the Messiah (being the "You") and is a light of the nations of the world.

    The balance of the passage is the operational statement of what will take place.

    But, the question then remains, what is Jeremiah 31 referring?

    Seems the Isaiah reference would show that Jeremiah may be significant to the Jews - only. For there isn't a mention of others from the nations being brought salvation as is done in Isaiah. Perhaps two reasons:

    First - Jeremiah encourages
    all the remnant to prosper in their disbursement (Jeremiah 29).

    Second - Jeremiah specifically states that it is the same group God took from Egypt, are (were) in dispersion to the nations, will, by God's decree,
    be returned by God to the land with the Law in their hearts put their by God. (Jeremiah 30 and 31)

    Could it be that Jeremiah (without mentioning salvation to the "nations" as Isaiah does) is presenting (as some prophesiers did), the immediate fulfillment as a shadow to a later complete fulfillment - one yet to come?

    God appointed the specific length to the Babylon captivity, and there is significant record of the return of the people.

    However, the statements of the conditions of the return and the results following do not match in complete detail what Jeremiah nor Isaiah record.

    Could it be that Jeremiah (and Isaiah) was given both illusion and specifics about two different times?

    One at the end of Babylon, and the other as more specifically a fulfillment at the beginning of the millennial reign?


     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    That the Dispensaltionalist view of Israel's promises as given Abraham in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, etc., is correct is undeniable. Those who want the church to be "the true Israel" deny God's sovereignty, mercy, grace, and power.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    This is quoted in the nt about the gentiles coming into the kingdom...n o hidden messiah....but rather The Servant of the Lord.
     
  9. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  10. convicted1

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    Yes they are...inwardly that is...
     
  11. convicted1

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    The promises of God are for a seed and not seeds...
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    agedman

    No there is no hidden messiah....he is the revealed Servant of the Lord

    The church is the TRUE ISRAEL made up of both jew and gentiles now...Christian Israel


    Yes...and God makes of the two...ONE NEW MAN IN CHRIST eph2

    this passage is quoted twice in the NT in reference to the ordained gentiles coming in alongside the elect remnant{the preserved of Israel}

    look here in ACTS 13..read the whole chapter...the whole sermon-

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed


    again in 2 cor 6;
    6 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    The Holy Spirit indicates it is being fulfilled since the cross.
     
  13. convicted1

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    If the gospel be hidden, it is hidden to them that are lost. Conversely, God has chosen the gospel to proclaim Christ to them He chose to redeem through Christ.
     
  14. Archie the Preacher

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    What is the Church?

    Historically, the only people 'cast off' by God were/are those who will not obey. Those who did NOT even attempt to follow the Covenant of Abraham and those who refuse the Covenant of Jesus.

    God - in the passage in Jeremiah - offers a 'new' covenant to the remnant of Israel. The passage mentions the addition of gentiles to the covenant. It seems rather obvious to me Jeremiah is relating the coming of the Messiah - Jesus - and the subsequent formation of the 'body of Christ'.

    So I would think the promise is to the 'Church' in that sense; the collective congregation of all those who believe, fully rely and adhere to the directions of Jesus Christ. Which includes Jews, but only those who - for lack of a better word - volunteer. Just as gentiles must volunteer.

    May I also suggest something in the way we approach these matters?

    In a very real sense, it doesn't matter at all what any of us 'think'. God is NOT waiting with bated breath for our opinion so that He might revise His plans accordingly. At the same time, it is appropriate we determine as best we can those plans that we might better serve or at the very least not hinder God's plans. ("Hinder": get smashed while being in the way.) And if we cannot outsmart God in the matter, we should do exactly what He has already told us to do, as Christians - which is fairly clear.
     
  15. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Undeniable. I haven't said it has to be plural to apply to both the Church and Israel. The Seed is Christ, the requirement for salvation is faith in Him, and it is through Him the remnant of Israel will be redeemed, and the promises to the nation fulfilled. There is no Scripture indicating God utterly abandons Israel, and to do so is outside the character of God. He is not one to renege, He is not one to lie. That He will fulfill His promise to Abraham regarding the land is beyond question.

    God proves faithful, even when we are not. It is no different with Israel. In fact, unless God proves faithful to disobedient Israel, what reason is there to believe that God will be faithful to the disobedient Gentiles? The God who rejects the disobedient people he once chose and then instead chooses another people is not the kind of God who will save a disobedient world.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    All true believers can be called Spiritual Jews!

    Romans 2:28, 29
    28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Colossians 2:10-13
    10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
     
  17. OldRegular

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:



    Well said Brother!:godisgood::godisgood:
     
  18. agedman

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    Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "hidden" messiah.

    The word "hidden" was in quotes - meaning that to the Jews the messiah is yet to come.

    It is as Paul says, kept from them - from their eyes and their hearts.

    In effect, He was and is "hidden."

    That is not a secret and is not contrary to the Scripture. Perhaps you are assuming that Christ is revealed to the gentile believers (and some Jews as God selects) and therefore He is revealed to all humankind.

    That Christ is now "revealed" to the believers, does not make Him "revealed" to the lost.

    The unsaved do not recognize Christ nor acknowledge Him as the messiah - in a sense, He is "hidden" because the lost do not comprehend and refuse to embrace the light (john 1).

    Yet, there will come a time when every knee shall bow. Every tongue shall confess. Everyone will see Christ as the messiah. Until then, except for believers, He is "hidden."

    I suppose I could have used what John used: shunned, avoided, not comprehended... instead I used "hidden."

    Perhaps a poor choice, but I figured the BB folks would understand.

    Apparently, not.




    No doubt, BUT when Isaiah and Jeremiah were written, there were no "christians." There were only two groups - Jews and Gentiles. Which brings us back to the basic question of the OP.

    Does this passage in Jeremiah 31 pertain to the church, to Israel (the Jews), or both?

    If one considers them restricted to Israel, then there is a problem with "when." For there has been no time in history to date which the specifics of the prophecy are completely met.

    If one considers them restricted to the church, then there is a problem with the language specific to Judah and the promise of physical control over a rather significant section of land and buildings, and at no time in history to date, has there been a fulfillment by the church of that prophecy.

    If one considers the words applicable to both, then that puts the wording as yet to be fulfilled and a promise that will take place in the future. As such, there would be only one period of future time recorded in the Scriptures in which the promise can be fulfilled.

    This is important, because God has revealed all the future in the Scriptures that He has considered important and John records that the prophecy was complete. (Rev 22)




    I have no problem with most of what you presented - it is truthful - just not applicable (imo) to the stated promise of God recorded by Jeremiah.

    The area of disagreement resides in the fact that history isn't on your side as being "fulfilled since the cross" - for at no time has the prophecy been accurately fulfilled. Therefore the "when" cannot be answered as in the past or present fulfillment. The closest answer would seem to be: Not yet.

    Either one must take Jeremiah as factual and a yet to be fulfilled future time (popularly called the millennium) or Jeremiah isn't factual in his recording of the promise made by God to the Jews.

    The Jews may have possessed some of the land, but their heart is still far from God and their messiah is still "hidden."

    The church certainly doesn't have possession of the land though the believers know the Messiah.
     
  19. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    First of all, the ones on here using the catchy phrase "secret Messiah" may think they are being clever and synopsizing the concept of Israel and the church indeed being separate, but they reveal their own ignorance in doing so. It is a clear indication they don't understand the differences between Israel and the church, and it explains why, upon being challenged to show biblical evidence God has abandoned Israel, they cite Old Testament passages in which God threatened Israel with His wrath, and His placing them in bondage. None of those passages succeed in making their point. Chastisement is not abandonment. Their choice to cut off fellowship is not God's choice to cut off relationship.

    In fact, after every single one of those passages, we see redemption, restoration, reconciliation, not abandonment or rejection. The last we see of Israel in the Old Testament are the prophecies of her restoration from captivity, the promises of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and particularly the faithfulness of God in keeping His chosen nation -- chosen as an example to the world of His love, grace, mercy and peace for those who love Him, even when they themselves act in faithlessness.

    Paul, however (as I've said before) clearly details the continuing separateness of Israel and the church. The Romans 11:16-36 passage doesn't show Israel or the church as the tree, but as branches of the same tree. It stands to reason that neither group is the sole recipient of God's grace and mercy, neither is the "whole tree," so to speak. Rather, the tree illustrates how God works with mankind as a whole, and that God has separate rubrics for Israel and the church, but both are part of the outworking of His purpose among men in general. Neither rubric is insignificant in that overall scheme, and it is obvious the Bible addresses these two rubrics more so than any of His other programs for the world.

    This does not deny that the church is called "the seed (or children) of Abraham. Quite clearly, that reality is stated in both the Old and New Testaments, particularly in Paul's writings.
    Galatians 3, (NASB)
    6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
    ---
    29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​
    Obviously, the Scriptures, specifically Genesis 15:6, which Paul cites in this passage from the letter to the church at Galatia, foretold that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: " 'All nations will be blessed through you.' " Believers do not become "physical Jews" but partake of the same blessing as Israel had as a nation -- and her remnant still enjoys by faith -- in her relationship with Him, and of the blessings promised to all nations through the Seed of Abraham, who is Christ.

    The foolishness of believing this negates, nullifies or cancels the Old Testament revelation to Abraham is near heresy in accepting the possibility that God could be dishonest in His dealing with Israel and withdraw the promises that He offered without requirement. Consider that after God had Abraham -- then still called Abram -- collect animals emblematic of an ancient covenant that has been documented extrabiblically, the account goes as follows:
    Genesis 15
    12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him.
    13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
    14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
    15 "As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
    16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
    17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. ​
    When the ancients performed this ceremony, as they passed between the pieces, they would ritually say, "May the same be done to me if I do not live up to the covenant we have made," or words to that effect. Notice, Abram didn't pass through the severed carcasses!! He was in a deep sleep. There was no requirement on him for this covenant to be fulfilled. There is no doubt, therefore, the promises will be fulfilled, including the promise of the physical land of Israel in the Thousand Year Reign.

    God’s promises in the Old Testament are still valid, and God’s relationship with Israel as a chosen people points to the work of Christ as a Redeemer of the whole world. The Mosaic Law is still mandatory for all Jews who have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah. True, they have no Temple by which sacrifices can be made and their sins "covered." But further consider, in Hebrews it is clear these sacrifices never actually remitted sin, and it is never said in Old or New Testament with finality that sins are forgiven by the blood-sacrifice of dumb animals.
    Hebrews 9
    6b ... the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
    7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
    8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
    9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
    10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.​
    All are saved -- Israel and the church, the body of Christ -- in the same fashion.
    Hebrews 7
    24 ... Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
    25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.​
    Paul, in Romans, makes it clear that the unbelief of some does not negate the ministry of God as promised Abram under that sky filled with uncountable stars.
    Romans 3
    3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
    4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."​
    God’s unconditional promises are not invalidated by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is ever a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. No, God is sovereign over all things -- past, present and future -- and what He has foreordained for both Israel and the Church will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. To think otherwise is to deny His faithfulness, power, and purpose.

    Lest I be accused of derailing the thread, in answer to the OP, the Jeremiah passage affirms what I've said here. The faithful of Israel will be found perfected in Christ, and the promises made to Abram will be delivered to them as He said.

    Done here.
     
    #19 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2014
  20. Yeshua1

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    beleive thatpromise is to the Church for now in Age of Grace, and to isreal in the Millinium to come!
     

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