Church leaders beliefs about Antichrist

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by antiaging, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. antiaging

    antiaging
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    John Calvin
    (1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
    "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.

    Martin Luther
    (1483-1546) (Lutheran)
    "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520)

    John Knox
    (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
    Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from "The Zurich Letters" pg. 199 by John Knox.

    Cotton Mather
    (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
    "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather

    Thomas Cranmer
    (1489-1556) (Anglican)
    "Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

    John Wesley
    (1703-1791) (Methodist)
    Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.

    Roger William
    (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
    He called the Pope "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)."

    You can add to those names these men that believed the same sort of thing.
    Wycliff, Tyndale, Sir Isaac Newton, Fox, Finney, Moody, Spurgeon.

    See the book, THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, by Froom for further information on this subject. --or GREAT PROPHECIES OF THE BIBLE by Woodrow.
     
  2. Eliyahu

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    Can anyone become an important figure in the Christian world, without recognizing the Pope as the Anti-Christ ?
     
  3. antiaging

    antiaging
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    Antichrist in Daniel chapter 11:
    From Dan. 11:21 on it talks of the vile person; you can tell from close examination that it is talking of the same leader till the end of Dan. 11. That is the antichrist.
    He will be the last one to occupy the estate of the two men in Dan. 11:19 and 20. I see the guy in Dan. 11:19 to be Julius Caesar, and 11:20 to be Caesar Augustus, the guy that raised the taxes that made Joseph go to Bethlehem. He raised two taxings and died in peace. The estate they both occupied is ruler of the Roman state and pontifex maximus, chief roman pontif, ruler of the Roman religion. That estate passed on to the popes of Rome, and it has lasted from the time of Julius Caesar till now. Antichrist should be the last one to occupy that estate, or the last roman pontiff, if I am correct about the guy in verse 11:20 as being caesar Augustus. [Estate means legal position, or inherited title.]
    Dan. 11:16, 17 and first half of 18, is Pompey. The guy that attacked Jerusalem and was chased down and defeated by Julius Caesar.
    The fourth kingdom in Dan. chapter 2 is Rome, and that is the empire that will be ruling when Jesus comes back. You can see from Dan.9:26, that the prince that shall come, (the antichrist) will be of the people that destroyed the Jerusalem in 70 AD. So the antichrist must be a Roman leader.

    Pope's title vicar of Christ means antichrist by definition.
    JESUS CHRIST HAS NO VlCAR. Vicar, from the Latin "vicarius" means "in the place of" e.g. vicarius sacrifice of Christ being His sacrifice in the place of the sinner. Papal claims such as infallibility, Head of the Church, Holy Father, all seek to put the Pope in the place of Christ, which place only the Living Christ can have. This false assumption of Rome is expressly put forward in the Papal title "Vicar of Jesus Christ".
    The New Testament was written in Greek, and the Greek translation of " vicar of Christ" is "Anti (instead of)-christos", or in our English Bible, "Antichrist". The word "Antichrist" is not just a word of wild insult, but is a Bible warning of the false role assumed by the Popes of Rome as supposed vicars of Christ, (See 1 John 2:18 D.V.).
    The Greek word for "Vice President" is "Anti-Proedros"; Because Anti, which means opposite, also means "replacement" or "instead", as in Vicar or Viceroy or Vicarious.

    The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do." "Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power."
    Corpus Juris chap. 1 column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII "All the names which are attributed to Christ in Scripture, inplying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope."

    Verse about the antichrist:
    II Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Well, as you can see, there are reasons why great bible scholars would believe such a thing.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Certainly this is a good "dark ages view" of the Papacy as expressed by the Pope to his followers.

    How sad that the Christian church should ever have descended into such bondage.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Rubato 1

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    Well, I'm not gonna argue with all of these guys.

    Of course, if the Pope is not the antichrist, he is at least an antichrist.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I tend to agree - he is "an antichrist"

    The "man of sin" in 2Thess 2 is primarily a reference to Satan setting up a counterfeit "second coming" event at the end of time -- not to the Pope.

    But both POPES and Protestants have applied this "man of sin" term to the Pope AND have applied the term John uses 1John 3 "Antichrist" (John is the ONLY one in scripture to mention the term) to Popes! (Yes POPES were applying this to fellow POPES even before Luther did)

    But I have another question for the group...

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Regarding the dark-ages notion below

    Wouldn't you agree that the ONLY way for such extreme error to be accepted in the Christian church is for Christians to abandon the sound teaching of "Sola Scriptura" proof for all doctrine.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. J.D.

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    I don't think the people in general "abandoned" sola scripture, for most of them never even heard of it. The invention of the printing press probably had a lot to do with the eventual success of the reformation. Information is power, and the Roman church were able to withhold information from the people for a long time. Once the scriptures were translated into a common language and it was widely published, the pope's unfettered reign was done. Sola scriptura became a possibility and an eventual reality for the common people.

    Similarly, blogs today threaten the powers that be because there's a lot of information out there that they would like to suppress.
     
  9. Sgt. Fury

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    That's why the Dark Ages were called "The Dark Ages", because the light of God's Truth was kept hidden by the Papacy from the "common man". Add to this the notion that only the church could properly interpret or understand the Scritpures, and suddenly the masses are dependent upon the elite few. Sounds a bit like the rule of the Supreme Court here in America...

    Anyway, I'd agree that the position of Pope certainly fits Paul's description of the man of sin in 2 Thes 2:3-10. I can't think of a single person or position that would fit it better.

    I wouldn't equate this with what people refer to as "the Antichrist", though, only because the phrase "the Antichrist" is not found in the Bible. Many seem to be waiting for a world leader who will show up near the end of time and trick all the nations into coming under his leadership. I'm not so sure the Bible says anything about that.

    John uses the word "antichrist" five times in 1 and 2 John, always in reference to anyone who denied that Jesus was the Christ, or that He had come in the flesh. He even states that there were already many antichrists in the world when he wrote the letter (1 John 2:18).

    So, "man of sin" or "son of perdition" IMO are certain references to the office of Pope, but "antichrist" anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ or that He came in the flesh.
     
  10. antiaging

    antiaging
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    1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,...
    Those words from that verse, are referring to a single man that will come. After saying that John describes another form of many antichrists. [The word anti in greek means against or substitute for. The many antichrists described in 1Jn. 2 are those that deny the Father and the son, so they are against Christ, that makes them antichrists. The single man that will come is going to be worshipped as a false god/man, acting as a substitute for Christ. That is why he can also be called antichrist.]

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    That is the individual man is expected to come near the end, who most of the protestant churches call antichrist.

    I will now show you why he can be refered to as antichrist, in Revelation.
    Jesus, who is called Christ, is God. The man of sin, in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, is going to pretend to be God. He is going to pretend to be a substitute for God. Christ is God, who became a man. So the man of sin is going to be a man pretending to be God, or a substitute for Christ. [the beast in Revelation 13 will receive worship as a god/man.]
    The word anti in Greek means, against or substitute for. The New testament was translated from greek. That man of sin pretending to be a substitute for Christ, is anti-christ translated into English. Antichrist is the definition in English for a substitute for Christ.
    The man whose name has the number 666 in Revelation 13, called the beast, is going to be worshipped as if he is a god/man. That makes him an antichrist by definition of the word antichrist from the greek.
    Even though he is not called antichrist in Revelation, he is acting as an antichrist to be worshipped as a man pretending to be a god that should be worshipped.
    Christ was the only real man that was God, made into flesh. Anyone receiving worhip as a god/man is pretending to be a substitute for Christ, and by definition from the Greek that makes him an antichrist.


    [One person can be called by different names in the Bible: Jesus, is called Emanual, prince of peace, son of man, son of God, Lord, etc.]

    [Gideon is called Jerrubaal, Jerubosheth.]

    You see different names can apply to the same person. People today have nicknames.
    It is the same way with the individual man called antichrist in the beginning of 1Jn2:18.
    So, he is not called antichrist in Revelation. So what. He is called beast. But he accepts worship as if he is a god/man, so he is acting as a substitute for Christ, that makes him an antichrist by definition, of the word antichrist from the greek.

    Those scriptures 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, seem to be a reference to Daniel 11:36,37.
    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

    The apostle Paul may have been further elaborating on those scriptures about the antichrist from Daniel. That is the evil last ruler that is expected, that many bible scholars refer to as antichrist.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The God-man claim for Rev 13 is weak. Though I can agree with some other reasons for viewing the activity in Rev 13 as being "in some sense" a reference to the 1John 3 concept of "yet another antichrist" from those in John's day.

    The truth is that the "popularity" of the 1John 3 term "Antichrist" - for what we find in 2Thess 2 and Rev 13 is really more of a populist marketing strategy that the Popes first used against other Popes and it has kind of "stuck" ever since.
     
  12. Sgt. Fury

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    Anyone who has taken the title of "Pope" has commanded more allegiance to his word than the word of God. Most RC's know more about what the Pope has authorized than what the Bible authorizes.

    The Pope is seen as the head of the church. The Bible says that that position is filled by Christ (Eph 1:22; Col 1:18). The office of "Pope" puts one in place of, or "anti" Christ.

    Paul said the "man of sin", "son of perdition", "that Wicked" would continue until the Lord returned and consumed him with the spirit of his mouth (2 Thes 2:8). Since there is already one putting himself in the place of God and demanding worship and privileges which should be reserved for God, the only reason to insist on an "end-times Antichrist" seems to be that the doctrine of Premillenialism demands it.
     
  13. Sgt. Fury

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    On the other hand, "man of sin", son of perdition", and "that Wicked", combined with Daniel's horns and the horns of Rev 13 may refer to Roman emperors that brought terrible persecution on the church.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    In Daniel 7 the little horn power (also detailed in Dan 8) arises after the split of the pagan Roman system into 10 major divisions and also AFTER the RCC manages to exert influence to destroy 3 of those major germanic-tribal divisions.

    So if we include the details of Dan (and the 1260 years of the dark ages persecution he identifies in Dan 7) with the 1260 years of persecution and darkness John highlights in Rev 11-13 we see that the RCC fits the bill during the dark ages -

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Sgt. Fury

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    I could go with that.
     
  16. antiaging

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    The roman emporers, that were pontifex maximus, chief roman pontiff claimed to be false god/men. They claimed divinity. The pharoahs of Egypt claimed the same thing. Hiro Hito, in Japan, in the 20th century claimed the same thing. Nimrod in ancient babylon claimed the same thing.
    If the guy in revelation 13 is worshipped by most of the people in the world, it is not hard to believe that he will claim divinity or that he is a false god/man.
    History shows that many have done this in the past.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Rev 13 speak to "beasts".

    Dan 8 declares that "Beasts" represent kingdoms, empires etc -- not one single person.

    For example the goat-like beast is stated clearly to be the Greek Empire.

    The Ram like beast is stated to be the empire of Medo-Persia.

    The same is true in Rev 13. The composit beast of Rev 13 (a composit of all the beasts in Daniel 7) represents a power/empire that combines all the errors of the set of four in Dan 7 and comes after the set of four.

    The lamb like beast of Rev 13 represents a new power that arises near the end of time and controls the world -- a super-power.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. antiaging

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    In Rev. 13 it says, 666 is the number of a man. So the first beast is also called a man.
    Beast can refer to king or kingdom
    Horn can refer to king or kingdom [Alexander the great Dan. 8]
    Mountain refers to kingdom [Babylon called a destroying mountain- Old testament]
    Head can refer to king or kingdom [Dan 2 Nebuchadnezzar]
    The relationship between the pope and the Jesuit general is the same as the relationship between the first and second beast in Rev. 13. He exercises all of the power of the pope and causes the world to respect (or worship) the pope through the organizations under his control.

    Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    In Daniel, the bear is medo-persia, the leopard is greece, the lion is babylon.
    His kingdom will have the feet of a bear; meaning large army like medo-persia; mouth of a lion; the ruling antichrist speaks with total authority like the babylonian king; beast is like a leopard; meaning cunning like Greece, or some other aspect of Greece.

    Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    6 Kingdoms that oppressed Israel; Egypt, Assyria, babylon, medo-persia, greece; that is the 5 that were fallen at the time of the writing. The 6th is the old Roman empire, which oppressed the Jews and ruled at the time of the writing. The 7th Kingdom is what is called the revived Roman empire under the control of the antichrist. The 8th is when the antichrist forms his dictatorship during the last 3.5 years, before Jesus' return. The antichrist's kingdom, is the beast itself, and he will exalt himself above all.


    Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    [Alberto Rivera, former catholic Jesuit priest, who became a protestant minister, said that the bent (or bowed ) crucifix on a pole that the pope holds, was bent on purpose to identify the pope with the rider on the white horse, holding a bow, in Revelation 6:2. Bible scholars for centuries have believed that the rider on that horse is the antichrist. (White horse is a symbol for conquering.)]
     
    #18 antiaging, Dec 22, 2007
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  19. BobRyan

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    1. I know of no case where a beast is a king being symbolically represented rather than a nation.

    2. 666 is the 'number of a man' -- numbers and letters in Latin were often the same (see the latest superbowl identifier)

    In Daniel 8 the 2nd beast (goat in the case of Greece) is a nation and the first beast is also a nation (medo-persia according to the text of Dan 8).

    3. There is no connection in Rev 13 to a "Single horn" doing anything.

    True - in Dan 2 Nebuchadnezzar is Babylon and the head of gold is the entire Babylonian empire including the decendants of Nebuchadnezzar as they ruled in time.

    That is the leap that you make without any Bible support.

    The Bible does not allow us to consider a "beast" to be single person or even a single church/govt office (like vice president, general, etc).

    But I do agree that the first beast of Rev 13 represents the Papacy -- the RCC.


    True.

    That is a stretch. All we know is that the Rev 13 beast is a "composit of all the beasts in Dan 7" and that they are mentioned in reverse order.

    In Dan 7 it is lion, bear, leopard, dragon.

    In Rev 13 it is a single composit beast with segements in reverse order to Dan 7. Dragon, Leopard, Bear, Lion.

    John is looking back at that sequence of empires.

    Daniel is looking forward into the future.

    As Malachi Martin stated in his book "keys" the greatest world empire ever to have existed followed pagan Rome -- it was Papal Rome.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Eliyahu

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    The Beast in Re 13:1, having seven heads and ten horns is found Re 12:3 and also in Dan 7:20, 24 ( from Dan 7:7 thru 28) and appears just before the Ancient of Days ( Dan 7:22) comes.

    This Beast fight against the Lord Jesus when He comes again ( Re 19:19-20) and was taken captive by King of Kings, and thrown into the Lake of Fire ( Re 19:20)

    Therefore I have no doubt that the Beast is going to appear in the Last Days, is yet to come.

    Also, Man of Perdition, Man of Sin was prophesied by Jesus and Paul as the person to appear in the Last Days ( Mt 24:15-, 2 Thess 2:4-11)
     

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