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I seriously doubt if a Baptist writer like McGoldrick could ever get a bishop's Imprimatur on anything he published. So no, of course he doesn't have to be approved by Catholics to be credible. However, a historian who clearly has a point to prove and makes no secret of his hatred for these people's beliefs (as you also do), has no credibility. The correct term for history with a bias for or against something is propaganda.

I wouldn't call it the Catholic view, I would call it the correct view. There are Catholic propagandists who distort history as well, although they are not as numerous as Protestant propagandists. Care to say who your professor was?

That's probably true.

What, pray tell, is the "Inspired Prophetic view of church history"? If you are talking about scripture, be careful. J. A. Wylie quotes a lot of scripture in that tome of garbage he entitled The Papacy Is the Antichrist, and he besmirches both himself and the Holy Bible by doing so.

 

I seriously doubt if a Baptist writer like McGoldrick could ever get a bishop's Imprimatur on anything he published. So no, of course he doesn't have to be Catholic approved to be credible. However, a historian who clearly has a point to prove and makes no secret of his hatred for these people's beliefs (as you also do), has no credibility. The correct term for history with a bias for or against something is propaganda.

There are Catholic propagandists who distort history as well, although they are not as numerous as Protestant propagandists, and neither kind should be given any credence.

 

Use the standard commentaries that people quote from: Albert Barnes, Matthew Henry, etc., the ones commonly found on-line. These men are 19th century or early 20th century (mostly Presbyterian) conservative scholars. While I don't agree with most of their eschatology, one thing they all have in common is they agree that the "whore" described in Revelation 17 is the murderous papacy.
Are you going to discredit all scholarship just because they take an anti-Catholic stand. Most Protestants do and did. If you don't know that by now you are ignorant of history.

 

That is not our point and you know it! It is his VEIW of history that must be approved by Rome or it is not a credible historical VIEW and thereby not a credible historian.

That is a ridiculous and irrational assertion! The TRUTH about the evil character of an institution provides a genuine basis for hatred and thus is a very logical consequence of knowing its history and character. That is the case with our Baptist forefathers who EXPERIENCED Catholic persecution up close and personal and/or who studied their evil practices and history.

So now YOU are the final authority and our view must get your approval to be credible history??? Any unbiased student of Catholic history and dogma can see it is old Babylonian mystery religion dressed in Christian terminology. The evidence is there and clear for anyone who really wants to know the truth.

I took several classes in Church history under several professors. Dr. Howard Bickers was the professor I mentioned. However, I took church history classes under Dr. Reginal Benard, Dr. Tom Nettles, and Dr. David Skinner.

Don't have to be careful as the Word of God is plain and explicit. The New Tesament writers including Christ prediction of an APOSTATE CHRISTIANITY (Acts 20:29-31; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Thes. 2:9-12; etc.). The characteristics of this apostate Christianity are quite clear and easy to see if one simply wants to see. It's roots begin in the very apostolic period. YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEM AWAY and any position that has to explain away problems is a weaker position.

1. Apostate Religion follows ithe Jewish hatred of Christians and persecutes and kills other professed Christians - Jn. 16:1-4; Rev. 17:5

2. Apostate Religion is a STATE CHURCH UNION or spiritual fornication with secular government - Rev.17:1-5 - this is easy to prove as "she" sits on the back of secular government and thus cannot be secular government.

3. Apostate Religion perverts and distorts the belief's of apostolic Christianity - Mt. 5:11-12.

4. Apostate Religion demands celibacy and prohibits certain meats - 1 Tim. 4:3-5

5. Apostate Religion adopts Babylonian Mystery Religion characteristics - Rev. 17:4 (Pope and Cardinals versus Biblical terms; College of Cardinals, Saturnalia, Preisthood, etc., etc.

6. The MAJORITY of professing Christendom as "tares" - Mt. 13; Mt. 7:13

Wylie and historians who exposed Rome as the Babylonian harlot have been justified recently by a new and expanded video documentary that is now on line and contains over 50 episodes with archeological and explicit criteria that demonstrates the truth of that position.

 

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=the+fuel+project+know+your+enemy

Check out this video series and you will have some iron clad proof of the Roman Catholic spiritual origin.

 

That link takes you to 100 or so different videos discussing conspiracy theories—the New World Order, the Jesuits, the Masons and the Illuminati. However, I suppose you are referring to Part 23—Roman Catholicism, which I did watch.

First, I don’t know who the voice over is but he is an excellent speaker with a pleasant Scottish accent. I have nothing else positive to say about it since it is filled with a grain of truth, many half truths and a few falsehoods. I hesitate to call them lies because I think they mostly arose out of ignorance. Here are three examples of factual errors in his presentation that jumped out at me. I noticed a number of others but I don’t want to take the time to research them to assure that my memory is correct:

• The narrator refers to the book of Hebrews to point out that some of the early Christians were placed in hollowed out trees and sawed in half. We find this in Hebrews 11:37 but the sawing in half does not refer to the early Christians but is a reference to Isaiah who, according to Jewish tradition, died in that manner.

• The narrator says Constantine established Sunday as the day of Christian worship. He did not. We can see the origins of Sunday worship in the New Testament. Then Justin Martyr, writing in the Second Century, makes it abundantly clear that Sunday, the Lord’s Day, was the day of Christian worship.

• No bishop of Rome has ever been named Damascus. His name was Damasus. Incidentally it was he who commissioned Jerome to produce the Vulgate translation of the Bible.

So, Biblicist, what the guy said sounds sinister and credible to those who don’t know the truth of these matters. It is noteworthy that he didn’t refer to a single source anywhere in his presentation. I realize a speaker cannot drop footnotes like one who is writing, but at least he might have quoted someone here and there. He did not.

Without a doubt this guy is a conspiracy theorist and they are all a little nuts. Sometimes a lot.

And you think this is ironclad proof? I hope not because if you do you are a little squirrely yourself.

 

This ought to be credible on everyone's list:

http://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/cramp.review.by.spurgeon.html

 

Originally posted by Walter:

"I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

You realize, of course, you are taking the position of the Roman Catholic Church......the same 'Church' who systematically persecuted, tortured, confiscated goods and possessions, imprisoned, burned or murdered by sundry other methods those professing Christians who refused to believe doctrines which were the inventions of their wicked 'Church.'

The satanic doctrines of the RCC have not changed one iota.

However, they can no longer persecute and exterminate here in America as they once did in Europe (and now do in N. Ireland and South America), thanks to centuries of courageous men, such as the Waldenses, who had the Scriptures translated into the tongue of the common people; who dared defy the commandments of men in order to obey the commandment of God to preach the Gospel to every creature; and who, by the grace and power of God, opened blind eyes to the heresies of the Catholic Church, causing multitudes to defect from the broad road leading to perdition.

The so-called 'confession' of Waldes was a sham, easily discernible to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

For example, in it he declares, "We humbly praise and faithfully venerate the ecclesiastical orders, that is, the episcopate and the priesthood and the others of higher and lower degree......." (Heresies, p. 207)

Yet in his next breath he and his fellow Christians are exhibiting extremely contumacious behavior by continuing to do that which shows hatred for the very Roman Catholic episcopate and priesthood he allegedly 'praised and venerated'....i.e., by preaching the Gospel against their direct orders.

P.S. The Book of Revelation is not that difficult to interpret. It's the history of the Church foretold.
Hint: the anti-Christians are those who did the murdering.
The true Christians are those who were murdered.

 

So Catholics are systematically murdering 'real Christians' in N. Ireland and South America? Really?

Your right, the doctrines of the Catholic Church have not changed one iota, now will they. But they are not Satanic. BTW, go back and read the thread. You will see the Catholic Church had translations of the bible in the vernacular long before any other sects did. They Catholic Church is not afraid of the word of God. After all, it preserved it down through the centuries. We owe a great debt to the monks who painstakingly penned the sacred text over and over again so that a copy could be available in every Church. However, nobody carried bibles around like they do today. They were extremely hard to come by as there was no printing press for years.

BTW, I don't accept everything that all Catholic writers come up with either. A few Catholic writers, particularly those less interested in digging for truth than in diffusing a criticism of the Church, have glossed over incontrovertible facts and tried to whitewash the Inquisition. This is as much a disservice to the truth as an exaggeration of the Inquisition’s bad points. These well-intentioned, but misguided, apologists are, in one respect, much like some of the writers on this board. They fear, while the others hope, that the facts about the Inquisition might prove the illegitimacy of the Catholic Church.
The Church has nothing to fear from the truth. No account of foolishness, misguided zeal, or cruelty by Catholics can undo the divine foundation of the Church, though, admittedly, these things are stumbling blocks to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
What must be grasped is that the Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29 and Matt. 7:15).

 

Purgatory
Maryolatry
Communion of the Saints
Indulgences
Transubstantiation
Immaculate Conception
Perpetual Virginity
Vow of celebacy
Abstaining from meats during Lenten

Doctrines of Devils
1Ti 4:1-3
Chapter 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

First, it is parts 22-32 not merely part 23

Second, it is 77 videos not "100 or so"

Third, it is about "Mystery Babylon"

Fourth, you memory is not corrrect. He does not deny that Hebrews 11:37 applied to Old Testament saints. Sunday was established by Constantine AS A MATTER OF LAW. The minor misspelling of a word by one letter "c" versus "s" is not consequential as both letters are interchangable in sound.

Go back and listen to all the series on the Catholic church instead of simply cherry picking one of several.

 

No comments? How can you deny the parallelism made between circumcision and baptism in the Roman Catholic Catechism??? This parallelism totally repudiates sacramentalism.

 

When you say things like this it really makes me wonder how brainwashed you are by the Catholic Church.

 

"Mystery Babylon." And this anonymous guy with the Scottish accent thinks the Illuminati, the Masons, the New World Order and the Catholic Church are all in cahoots? Doesn't he know the Masonic Order and the Catholic Church are mortal enemies? Doesn't he know that Masons are not permitted to receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church?

Reputable commentators generally agree that Mystery Babylon is a reference to pagan Rome or possibly apostate Jerusalem. (DHK mentioned in another post that the 19th Century commentaries generally connect Babylon to the Catholic Church, but the newer ones do not, not even the very conservative newer ones.)

The narrator does not deny that Hebrews 11:37 applies to O.T. saints. He doesn't even mention O.T. saints. Anyone listening to him would think he is speaking of persecution of the Christians by the Romans. Here is what he said:

All Constantine did was to make Sunday the official day of worship in the Roman Empire. You know very well that this was the practice from the beginning. It is not unusual to codify practices already in existence.

As for the misspelling and mispronunciation of Damasus, it would not be a big deal except it proves conclusively his unfamiliarity with the subject matter. Damasus I was not an obscure individual; he was one of the best known popes and to mispronounce his name as Damascus sticks out like a sore thumb. It would be like someone who purports to be an expert on Kentucky and phonetically pronouncing Lou-is-ville rather than saying "Louie-ville." You would immediately recognize that he knows very little of which he speaks. And that is why I made an issue of it.

 

When you say things like that it leaves no doubt in my mind what they put in your head at that that KJVO unaccredited bible college that doesn’t let students play cards, go to movies or dances, or even get married during the school term.

Walter made a very balanced and insightful observation, and you call him brainwashed? I realize it's an inconvenient truth for you but there is only one church that was established by Jesus Christ, the OHCAC.

 

I would give Jordan the benefit of the doubt here.
He has been a member of the board for less than a year and has made about 400 posts, most of them in Baptist forums, not in this forum. Therefore he may not be acquainted with who Walter is. Walter is officially a Catholic but in his profile lists his denomination as Baptist. That is enough to confuse anyone new to this site. He probably thinks that Walter is a Baptist, or at least that is what his post sounded like to me.

 

When you admittedly only viewed one segment you will not be qualified to make the comments you made above which are WRONG! He is attempting to show a common SPIRITUAL thread through all these institutions that is Lucerferic. If you had watched the second segment, (first segment simply plays music and different pictures) you would see that he is showing that Lucifer, the angel of light has a plan just as God has a plan in this world and that plan is referred to and manifested in what the Bible calls "Mystery Babylon." The commonality of all these institutions and groups is not that they work with each other or like each other but have a common source (Lucifer) and all have roots that are manifested in the "Mystery Babylon" religion. Look at it before commenting on it.

Meaning all who agree with the Roman Catholic Church commentators. The truth is not based upon "reputable" commentators but on the facts of the Biblical data which make it utterly and clearly IMPOSSIBLE to harmonize the Great Whore with secular Rome. One has to be blind and deaf to embrace such an interpetation. Please challenge me on this.


commentators generally agree that Mystery Babylon is a reference to pagan Rome or possibly apostate Jerusalem. (DHK mentioned in another post that the 19th Century commentaries generally connect Babylon to the Catholic Church, but the newer ones do not, not even the very conservative newer ones.)

Are you kidding me????? Do you really mean to convey that he is applying this to Post-biblical events as a prophecy?????? You are giving a perfect example why Roman monk historians are totally untrustworthy as they interpret statements exactly as you do. Anyone can read this statement and see that he is clearly referencing this kind of persecution that occurred in the Old Testament and recorded by the writer of Hebrews to be LIKE that which occurred under Roman persecution. Nobody, except those with intentional bias would ever interpet this the way you are doing. Good grief!!

I never denied it was not the practice from the beginning. I simply affirmed that Constantine historically was the first to enforce it as a National law. No one prior to Constantine made it a National Law - he is the first and thus the originator of Secular Sunday Law.

If you had listen to the entire series you can easily see that the composer of this series is well learned. I do not know if the narrator is the composer and it could simply be a mistake of the narrator rather than the composer of the series.

I recommend to you and to the readers on the forum take the time and at least view the first 32 segments as they are all relatively short before trying to draw conclusions.

 

Yeah, you're probably right. :thumbs:

 

I don't have to look at it. I've read plenty of this claptrap in the past and it's always written by people who see conspiracies everywhere. I don't much care for conspiracy theories, especially those with international and spiritual intrigue. It reminds me of Dan Brown, although Brown is a lot more talented in portraying them.

I'd like to but I don't have the time to do the reading necessary for a good debate. Of course to have any meaningful debate we would have to agree on what Revelation portrays. Whether it is a statement of future events or a commentary on events of the First Century. Again, I just don't have time to get into it. I can devote about 30 minutes a day to Baptist Board, sometimes a little more. But I'm a self-employed professional and five other people who work for me depend on me to make enough money that they can be paid twice a month.

First, he speaks of "the brutality of the Roman Empire towards Christians."

Next, he says, "Christians were thrown to lions for sport in coliseums . . . ." Clearly another reference to the Roman Empire.

Then, he recites a litany of tortures such as being made human torches, being mauled by wild animals and being crowned with metal spikes--all being practices of the Romans.

Concerning crowns of metal, he says, "Some were noted to have crowns of metal . . . ."

Then to show a parallel practice, he says, "Some were placed inside a hollowed out tree and then sawed in half."

There is no other conclusion to draw than to think he believed the book of Hebrews was prophesying a torture used by the Roman Empire.

Of course you know better than that and most people who know anything about the Bible know better than that. But you can't escape the fact that the way he stated it, those unlearned in the Bible would think he was talking about a Roman torture method.

It's a mistake of the narrator and the composer, whoever they are (he is). Not only did he pronounce it wrong, the video has a frame that spells it wrong (Damascus).

 

Errr . . . . no. He has never visited my profile. I don't know why he would assume I'm a Baptist.

Would be nice if it were possible to change our denominational affiliation on our profile, but to my knowledge, it isn't possible to do so. Unlike changing a persons home church.