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Church of Christ? What?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ormond, Jul 18, 2002.

  1. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Adam:
    The church is ued in two senses in the Bible. One local. The other universal. I Cor. 1:2 is an example of how the church is local. It is at Corinth. In Col. 1:18 the reference is to the church of Christ universal.
    When I made the statement I am a part of the church of Acts 2, I was referring to the one universal church Christ built. Mat. 16:18, I Cor. 12:12.13, Col. 1:18, Col. 1:12,13.
    You did get one thing correct. Paul and Peter are dead. IITim. 4:6-8, John 21:18,19, II Pet. 1:12,13.
     
  2. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    I guess you didn't understand what was happening in the early days of the church with people turning over money, property, etc. to the disciples for distribution to others, that is the essence of communal living.

    Figuring that the breaking of bread is also a figure of speech refering to the Lord's supper, it has both meanings. I do not think that the recieving of food and breaking of bread are related thoughts in v.46 because it doesn't fit in the context with the breaking of bread in v.42.
     
  3. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Charles:
    I would laugh. However, sadly most likely the comments were made out of serious ignorance of the scriptures. The world in general has little concept of the one body of Christ. Some are even proud of their divisiveness. God, however, does not approve of it.John 17:20,21 I Cor. 1:10-13, Phil. 3:16,17,Jude 3,Eph. 4:4-6,Romans 16:17, Titus 2:1;3:10,11.
    Frank
     
  4. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    I stand by what I have posted. If those things were for everyone today. Then, no one would own anything according to your interpretation. No onew would have a homne. Furthermore, the church, met in homes of it's members as well as the temple and other sundry places. Romans 16:5,Acts 16:13-15,Phl.2.
    The text does not declare,imply or by example teach us to live as a commune. Verse 46 also states they were eating their meat( a reference to food a meal). Mt. 3:4;6:25: 9:10;14:2;25:25MK. 8:8, Lk.7:37,John 4:32.
    Frank
     
  5. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Frank,

    You have done several things here which I am offended.

    1) You assumed that I had a serious ignorance of the scriptures.
    2) You have assumed that I am of the world.
    3) You have shown a great deal of disrespect to me in these assumptions.

    Bro. Adam
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Your conclusions here are absolutely correct. So then you must ask yourself, Why do you continue to persist in saying that you are a member of that church in Acts 2. The word church means assembly. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. Every assembly (Gk. ekklesia) is local--all the time. You ought to read the thread on the body of Christ. The church in Acts 2 was a church located in Jerusalem--nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing mystical about this church (this assembly) that once existed in Jerusalem. Don't claim to be a part of that which once was.
    DHK
     
  7. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    Yes, I understand what was taking place in the church. I have sold things and given to those in need and continue to do so. I John 3: 17. However, I am also under the duty to provide for my family.I Tim. 5:8. The text of Acts 2 does not bind communal living or selling everything. The church would have been unable to meet in the homes of it's members. Romans 16:5, Philemon 2.
    One must rightly divide the truth.
    Frank
     
  8. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    AdAM:
    First, I was not talking about you as I didnot call your name. The comment about being proud of being a part of a denomination came from someone else. Go back and read the previous posts.
    Secondly,You made a very childish and inane remark about Paul and Peter. Again, read your post.
    Thirdly,You have demonstrated by your posts you do not understand the universal or local concept of the church.
    Frank
     
  9. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Dhk:
    The Bible teaches that there is one church. It belongs to Christ. Mat. 16:18, Col. 1:18, Acts 20:28, I Cor. 12:12, Eph. 1: 22,23; Eph. 5: 23-27.

    Secondly, the term church is used in a local sense and a universal sense. In Col. 1:18, Mat. 16:18. It is used in reference to the church worldwide. It is used in the local sense in I Cor. 1:2,Gal. 1:2

    Thirdly, the term church is a transliterated word and is also synonymous with congregation, assembly, called out people, house of God.

    Fourthly, there is only one faith, Eph. 4:4,5. Those of like precious faith make up the saved, the church. Context determaines if the universal church is in view or a local group Jerusalem Ephesus, Galatia. SEE SECONDLY.
    I have provided the scriptures for the church local and universal. Again, rightly divide the word. Have a good one.
    Frank
     
  10. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Dhk:
    teh universal church began in Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:1-4,Micah 4:2,Acts 2:5,14. Therefore, to be of the one faith, Eph. 4;4,5, Jude 3, one must be a part of the one body. Since I am of like precious faith I am a part of the one church, the body of Chirst. I happen to meet in LaGrange instead of Jereusalem, Galatia, Ephesus, or Rome. These places are made of Christians. They simply assemble for worship in different parts of the world. However, they are still a part of the one body of Christ. So, universally speaking and by faith I am a part of the same body of Christians that meet in Acts 2 in Jerusalem.
    One final correction, the church of Christ still assembles in Jerusalem.
    Frank
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The word churh is not a transliterated word. Please do your homework. It is a wrongly translated word. There is another Greek word for church, kuryakon, meaning house of God, from which our English word "church" came from.
    Ekklesia is the word used in the Bible. It comes from two words ek, meaning out of; and kalew, meaning, to call. The literal denotative meaning therefore would be a called out assembly. The common definition of the term is simply assembly or congregation, as it was rightly translated in Acts 19:32

    32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

    The only reason the word was translated church in the first place is because of political correctness on the part of the translators. They were primarily Anglicans; that alone would cloud their judgement in translation.

    Giving a list of Scripture references proves nothing. You do that quite a bit. In every case, including the verses that you provided the word ekklesia means local assembly. There is no such thing as a universal and unassembled assembly. Try applying those same ideas to the definition of the word as given in Acts 19:32, and see how ridiculous your ideas look. The assembly that gathered in the theater in Ephesus was universal??
    To what extent people will go to, to defend a cherished doctrine! Like I mentioned, you ought to read the thread in this forum on "the body of Christ."
    DHK
     
  12. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    As for your statement about all people being in denominations, It is simply an unsubstantiated opinion. Denominate means to walk by another rule, to give another name. You could not prove that if your life depended on it. God HAS AUTHORIZED ONE BODY. HE DOES NOT APPROVE OF DIVISION, DENOMINATIONALISM.
    Consider the following: I Cor. 1:10, Phil. 3:16, Jude 3, Romans 16:17, II John 9-11,I John 4:1,Titus 3:10,11, John 17;20,21, II Tim. 2:17
    In fact, every plant which my heavenly father hath not planted shall be rooted up. Mat. 15:13.

    Why not speak for yourself? If you want to be in a denomination, YOU CAN. However, allow the same freedom for those who wish to follow the New Testament of Christ and be just Christians no more and no less. Besides, you cannot stop people from being such anyway. You and a million like you can claim otherwise, but the Bible says WE CAN. It was done in the first century and it is done today, God says so. John 8:31,32.
    Frank
     
  13. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    dhk:
    I have about 26 translations here. Some use church others assembly or congregation. Which one would you like to use. However, there is only one body of saved and they belong to Christ.Mat. 16:18. You should follow your own advice.
    Frank
     
  14. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    dhk:
    It is obvious to the rational mind that the body of the saved, the church, is used in a local and universal sense. The church at Rome was the church that belonged to Chirst. The same is true of the others mentioned. They simply show location for the various members of the one body meeting in that location. The Bible so teaches in I Cor. 1;2, Gal. 1:2, Eph. 1:1.
    The Bible also teaches one church. Is. 2;1-4,Micah 4;2,Mat. 16:18, Acts 20:28, Acts 2:47.

    One body , the church, has many members. I Cor. 12:12-14, Col. 1:18, I Cor, 14:33 This is universal. The context of the passages in the Bible so teach.
     
  15. Renewed

    Renewed New Member

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    I have never looked at the Church of Christ and admit total ignorance of anything they stand for, but I am impressed with what Frank has said and how he has presented it. It's given me something to really look into and fresh things to think about and things to study from a new perspective. [​IMG]
    R
     
  16. ChristianCynic

    ChristianCynic <img src=/cc2.jpg>

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    &lt; What bugs a lot of us is the extent that you use it by making lists. &gt;

    This is a tactic used by 'Jevhovah's Witnesses' and 'Churches of Christ;' one likely enough learned it from the other. If you read Watchtower literature, you can see they make claims about 'one body' and such things then list scriptural passages knowing that most readers are not actually going to check these out. But if you do check them out, you will see that the passages cited do not prove what they claimed, and sometimes have little to do with the issue.

    In this forum, (although I am not reviewing it all to look for examples) Frank stated about a collection being taken on the 'Lord's Day' or first day of the week and that day only, and cited Revelation 1:10. Read that verse and it does use the term "Lord's Day," but it makes no identification of such and says nothing about a collection, and it certanly does not say there are days which do NOT belong to the Lord.

    But this is his tactic he has learned from his organization(s), so don't expect him to suddenly change.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Frank,
    It is also obvious that you have not/will not read the thread "What exactly is the ‘Body of Christ?'" which I bumped up for you. The information that I will give you now, has already been discussed in that thread quite thoroughly.

    "It is obvious to the rational mind that the body of the saved, the church, is used in a local and universal sense."
    It is not so obvious to you that it is not used in both a local and universal sense, neither indeed can be. If you take time to read what I have already written you would find out why. Words have meanings. It is impossible or an assembly or congregation to be either invisible or universal. Please explain that one. Look up the definition of assembly or congregation, and tell me how it can be either invisible or universal. It is a physical impossibility. It defies logic, and the definition of the word ekklesia (assembly). An assembly is a congregation that gathers together in one place at one time, such as what happened in Acts 19:32. What was universal about that?
    The Bible never teaches the existence of just one church (except at the beginning of the Book of Acts before the disciples had planted a church outside of Jerusalem). It always teaches the existence of churches. Let's look at one of the verses you posted:

    Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Now, Frank, you being such a literalist with the Bible ought to join the "Church of God," not the "Church of Christ," for that is the one that Christ died for. J/k
    But what does this passage teach? Paul calls together the pastors of the Ephesian church (assembly). He wants to give them some last minute instructions before he goes to Jerusalem. Remember he is speaking to the pastors of the assembly at Ephesus. He says to them to feed the assembly of God which God has purchased with his own blood. This is not talking of a universal church. The context is the church at Ephesus, and Paul just finished telling them that God shed His blood for that particular assembly.

    Eph.5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    ---Again writing to Ephesus, he emphasizes the same thing. Christ loved the church (the one at Ephesus), and gave himself for it. He is writing to the Ephesians, to their assembly.

    1Cor.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    ---Now he is addressing the Corinthian church, and in the next few verses he uses the illustration of the body to illustrate how the church should function harmoniously together as one unit, something a universal "monster organization" could never do. He tells how each one has to function. Not every "member" can be the hand or the eye. We all have a different purpose or function. This illustration that Paul uses is only applicable to a local church. "When one member suffers, all the members suffer." This is only true in a local church, never in a universal church. You don't know what the believers of India, Pakistan, Bangeledash, Saudia Arabia, Kenya, etc. are suffering. But the assemblies that those believers belong to know, and they pray one for another, and can do so because they know and understand each others needs.

    1Cor.12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    ---Who did he say that to? The Corinthian assembly! They were a body of Christ (metaphorically speaking), with Christ as their head, as He ought to be the head of every Bible-believing local church.
    The only meaning of ekklesia, translated church, is assembly, which of course has to be a local assembly.
    DHK
     
  18. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Unless you and the congregation you are a member of are in complete fellowship with every single congregation in existance you are a denomination. Judging by the implied beliefs you hold I can safely say you are not in fellowship with my congregation or in fellowship with many of my brothers who belong to baptist congregations. For that reason you belong to a denomination to say otherwise is hypocritical of you and can not be allowed. If you are a member of a congregation that claims fellowship with a denomination then you are a member of a denomination and to say otherwise is hypocritical for you to claim otherwise. How about you stop being so vague and tell us of what congregation you are a member. I can not allow freedom when it means a person is being hypocritical.

    PS if you think you are impressing us by throwing around more prooftexts than a drunken preacher your not, because you use them about as well as a drunken preacher.
     
  19. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I decided just for kicks to look up what denomination meant:

    "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."
    (Source: Dictionary.com)

    Now, could a single church in and of itself be considered a denomination? I'd almost bet that Franks church has some sort of secratary or administrative person and I'd dare say he also has a deacon board (or elders) in his church and a pastor (that is, since he is following the New Testament church).

    Bro. Adam
     
  20. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I do not see it as childish, and obviously neither do the other members here. Humor is good for the soul.

    How did I demonstrate this? Humor and serious conversation on a topic are two entirely different things.

    Bro. Adam
     
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