Church of Christ

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BPM, May 1, 2002.

  1. BPM

    BPM
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    It has been my experience that the Church of Christ proclaim that Baptism is essential for salvation, are there any of you guys out there that have a different undestanding or experience?
     
  2. panza1_99

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  3. Brother Adam

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    I will try to get permission to copy a letter here. I was considering going to Harding University in Arkansas (Church of Christ) and communicated back and forth with a Bible prof. there for a while. The answer is yes, they do believe it is necessary, but don't take my word for it. ;)

    UNP
    Adam
     
  4. Carson Weber

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    Yes they do - but their soteriology is not solid concerning the doctrine. They recognize this from the Bible, but when the theology is concerned, it's weak.

    This is what Baptism does:

    http://members.aol.com/johnprh/baptism.html
     
  5. Briguy

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    Hi all,

    The Church of Christ does believe Baptism is needed for salvation. My own studies and prayer have lead me to the conclusion that Baptism is NOT needed for salvation, in fact, I think its significance has changed along with "The Church".

    But----that is a different topic [​IMG]

    In Christ alone,
    Brian
     
  6. Eladar

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    While my study has led me to believe that short of an immediate death, it is.

    Our faith is perfected by our actions. Someone who is unwilling to be baptized is unwilling to submit to God. It is a fruit of a rebellious heart.

    I am a graduate of ACU, a Church of Christ University in Abilene Texas, and it is Church of Christ doctrine that baptism is required for salvation.

    [ May 02, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  7. atestring

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    On the day of Pentecost,Peter was ask
    "What must I do to be saved?
    What was Peter's Answer from Acts 2 :38?
    1. Repent
    2. Be Baptized

    Church of christ believe that 2 things are necessary for Salvation.
    Also Mark 16:16 mentions 2 things necessary for salvation.
    I find no fault with their teaching on this subject.
     
  8. Frank

    Frank
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    BPM:
    I cannot speak for the church of Christ. However, the Bible teaches that water baptism is essential for the salvation of the sinner.( Rev. 1:5,Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:26). The baptism that was to last until the end of time had human adminstrators.( Mat. 28:19,20). The only baptism that has human administrators is water baptism.( See Acts 8:38). Jesus said in Jn. 3:5 we must be born of water and spirit.
    Frank
     
  9. Frank

    Frank
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    Carson:
    The Bible teaches that water baptism is esssential for the salvation of the sinner.That is the only case that matters.
    Frank
     
  10. Briguy

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    Atestring and others, In Acts 3 it says:

    "3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

    There is no Baptism in this verse, along with many other verses about being saved. What was said in Acts 2 must be read in context and with knowing what was happening at that time. Baptism then was much like church membership now, it affiliated a person with "the way" or what we call the the "church". Baptism in the early church was basically like signing a document would be today. It was an outward commitment that people could see. Persucution was so big that this was a big thing to do.

    Nils, If you can make a exception to the rule, you have no rule. Your position would make more sense if you said that a person that died on the way to his baptism would go to hell. That is the only argument if baptism truely saves.

    I don't believe in a God that judges by wetness, but one who judges by heartness(I just made that up but I like it ;) :D )

    In Love and Truth,
    Brian
     
  11. Frank

    Frank
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    Briguy:
    Jesus said a man must believe and be baptized. (Mk. 16;16). The Bible teaches in Acts 2:38 that one must repent and be baptized.
    I can site scripture that say sone must confess and be saved and it not include repentance.( Romans 10:10). Are you going to exclude it. Jesus said we must confess him.( Mat. 10:32).
    The SUM TOTAL of thy Words is TRUTH. (Psalms 119:160). Let's use the whole counsel of God.( Acts 20:27). This is essential if we are to make rational conclusions about truth.
    Frank
     
  12. Carson Weber

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    Hi Frank,

    I'm a theologian, and as such, I seek understanding of the Christian deposit of faith.

    The Bible teaches that water baptism is esssential for the salvation of the sinner.That is the only case that matters.


    But why is it necessary? This is the question. And, it's one that has been answered for twenty centuries by the Church, whose doctrine remains the same as it did in the apostolic age. The reason it's necessary is because it confers the forgiveness of sins and regenerates the believer unto new life.

    This rebirth is from above ("anothen" - Cf. Jn 3:3,5), which is from the Spirit, who sanctifies the believer, and the end of this sanctification is eternal life (Rm 6:22).

    God bless,

    Carson

    [ May 02, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  13. Eladar

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    Brian,

    I think you are either trying to paint me as legalistic or you can only understand a legalistic view when it comes to actions.

    As I said, my belief on this matter stems from our actions being a fruit of our heart. God judges our hearts, not our actions. If we are simply unwilling to follow God's commands, then there is something wrong with our hearts.

    Can you find one example of a person who in the New Testament is considered a follower of Christ, yet was not baptized?
     
  14. Brother Adam

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    Romans 3:23-25
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    What does God's Word say about being justified?

    UNP
    Adam
     
  15. Brother Adam

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    I think sometimes it is hard to hold to the proper view of baptism, because while it is not necessary for salvation, you at the same time should not water down its importance.

    In the early church, as seen by many of the verses above so I won't repeat them here, baptism was part of your testimony, was part of accepting the Lord. We have to remember though:

    Titus 3:5
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    So our works do not play a part in our salvation, but only God alone can save us.

    Excellent thread btw. I would like to see some more of the COC's doctrine written down, so we can all be knowledgable as to what they believe.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  16. Briguy

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    Hi Frank, I think we need to read all of MK 16:16
    It says:
    "16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    He who believes not is damned not he who is Baptized not. This verse in other words says, He who believes and signs on the dotted line, confirming they are being honest, is saved. At that time one risked death becoming a Christian and baptism was the way you showed you were serious, again liking it to signing a contract or a marriage certificate. Things are different now and so is the purpose of baptism.

    Nils, I don't even know how to paint :D
    I think you are a solid Christian even if we disagree on a thing or two. I was simply saying that if you have loop holes in a "must" theory it is no longer a "must"

    Also, Read the 1st Chapter of 1 Cor. and see how Paul was "glad" he had not Baptized more people then he had. He was glad because even by then he saw the misunderstanding Baptism was causing.

    In Love and Truth,
    Brian
     
  17. conan94

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    Being a simple sort of guy I take a simple view..

    If you get baptised and you really dont need to - you only wet (and good fluffy towel fixes that little problem right up.)

    IF ON THE HAND, scripture is right after all - well.... the upside is pretty big huh!! ;) ;) ;)

    Why take a chance by attempting to explain away your own justifications for not acting on an instuction from scripture. The common one is that "you need to look at in context of the time in which it was written".
     
  18. Eladar

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    Brian,

    Thanks for the compliment.

    If you will go back to what I said, I said what was important was the heart. Actions are not a must, but if there is the opportunity and the actions are not taken, then there is cause for concern.

    See James 2 ;)
     
  19. BPM

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    Thanks for the discussion, I am not picking on the CoC but I have had some run ins with Pastors in their ranks concerning what I feel are key issues, such as this one. First here are my thoughts on the necessity of baptism for salvation, in my opinion it doesn't exist. Eph 2 says by grace are you saved by faith not of works lest any man should boast. works are not required for salvation even good works such as Baptism, now as a baptist of course I believe that BAptism is important and should be observed by immersion but it is an event that occurs after salvation and seperate from salvation, now as some have mentioned for one to claim newbirth and refuse baptism I am worried about their conversion.
    My other thought is that the thief on the cross was not baptised and Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise, now before anybody jumps lets think about it, I know this situation didn't allow time for baptism but the beauty of God's amazing grace is that it has the power to save to the uttermost anyone that believes,whether that person is on a cross, in the desert with no water around or in the church with a baptistry.If you were a missionary in the desert and you had a person give his heart to jesus would you not consider him saved until water could be found?
     
  20. WoHu1

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    Surely there can't be contradiction in scripture. One passage makes it appear that baptism by water and the Holy Spirit is needed. Yet some texts is interpreted as not requiring baptism in water. What if a person wants to be baptized and somehow can't get it before he dies? In our church this (apparent) conflict is resolved by the doctrine of baptism by desire. THere are other "types" of baptism also.

    God Bless.
     

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