church of Christ

HP: Tom, the Scripture you point to is indeed true, BUT it speaks to the grounds of salvation. It is absolutely true that nothing man can do is meritorious in salvation, neither is anything that man does considered in the sense of ‘that for the sake of,’ or the grounds of salvation. The grounds of salvation is none other than the mercy and grace of God. The sacrifice of Christ, by the life and shedding of His blood are the only meritorious works involved in salvation.

So again, speaking of the grounds of salvation, the verse you quote is indeed true and correct. That does not preclude the notion that indeed God has mandated conditions for man to fulfill that involve the will of man, ‘without which’ none shall be saved just as the prison illustration illustrates the principles involved. It can be said that salvation is apart from the will of man, again referring to the grounds of salvation, while at the same time salvation indeed does involve the will of man thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ We are not saved for the sake of our wills, but neither will any be saved apart from our wills involvement in the fulfilling of the conditions of salvation, which are; faith, repentance and continued obedience to the end.

 

salvation by works is 'another gospel' foreign to scripture, a 'salvation' obtained by works is no salvation at all.

 

HP: Are you judging the salvation of those holding to COC doctrine, even if it is in error in some ways? If not why not?

 

HP: When you deny the involvement of man’s will in faith, belief, repentance, continuance there remains but one alternative with its necessitated end, i.e., God is the sole cause of both those that receive AND those that do not received this causation from God. If that is the case, double predestination is a necessitated consequence of such beliefs. I for one find that to be a most wicked blight to place upon the character of a Holy and Just God.

 

I will just go back to the start.

To believe and to repent cannot be separated. A person who believes simultaneously repents.

Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). Acts 16:31b says “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). If a person truly has a conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord, then s/he will immediately repent of living however s/he sees fit.

People who think that faith and repentance are distinguishable things have a low view of faith. If they have such a `faith' then it is no wonder that they think faith is worthless.

Confession and baptism are separate deeds done after faith. There is not one passage of Scripture that teaches that those who fail to make oral confession or fail to get baptized will be condemned.

There is, however, this:

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV). ​

It is not complicated. We are not saved due to our works. However, after we are "saved through faith," the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord will motivate us to live accordingly "unto good works."

Jesus Christ forecast the same.

John 6:28-9 says “The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​

When these people asked for a plurality of “works” to “do,” Jesus had just one -- belief on Him. In Paul's terminology, he does not classify "faith" as a work, which was a license given to him by the Lord. Still, the teaching is the same: a person who believes on Jesus Christ as Lord fulfills what the Lord prescribes for salvation.

There is yet another clear statement in Scripture about this: As Peter was preaching about Jesus Christ, he said

Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).​

Oral confession and baptism are obligations of every capable and rightly-knowing believer. They should never be taken lightly. Responsible Christians should be very serious about new converts making confession and being baptized. New converts should feel an immense obligation to do these things if they are not mute and if they have a known opportunity to be baptized. Still, the Bible is clear -- as believers, they are assured of salvation.

I will close with Matthew 28:19-20a where Jesus Christ said

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV).​

Per Acts 11:26, "Christians" renames “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB), and Greek rendered “baptize” means “completely submerge,”* so we are to “completely submerge” people who are “disciples” = Christians. If people are not Christians until after they begin to come up from baptism, then we would not "completely submerge" "disciples" and so it would be impossible to obey this passage. This would be only one Bible contradiction of many Bible contradictions if believers are not saved until after baptism.

It is best to simply accept the plain statements of Scripture: believers on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved for their faith, and assured of salvation.


______
*Stamatis, Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church, page 191.

 

Could we possibly need to be reminded of this verse? 1Jo 5:12 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” No where does it say ‘he that hath right doctrine hath life, and he that does not have right doctrine hath not life.’

I am of the opinion that one can be saved in spite of erroneous teachings such as water baptism as being condition of salvation. IF one is truly trusting in water baptism to save them, they well may found not in Christ in the last day, but it is also entirely possible that they, in spite of their false belief, have trusted in Christ by faith to save them and as such be truly saved. By the fruits of their life, not always by the doctrines they hold to, will it be evident that God has indeed done a good work in their heart.

Just as Wesley found his heart strangely warmed by the Moravian brothers and sisters, he still instinctively knew that he could never be part of that group due to clear doctrinal differences. Wesley showed us a good example of Christian charity in his love and acceptance of the Moravians as true Christian brothers in the Lord. I believe it our Christian duty to show charity, kindness, and yes even acceptance of others with different doctrinal positions as fellow believers, if in fact they show fruits in their lives of Christian character. The fruits of the spirit are what? Doctrine? Scripture tells us the following. Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

HP: With that I concur. Bear in mind that God’s dealings with man are passive, not coercive in salvation. He draws, not coerces. He knocks at our hearts door, not simply forcing or coercing His way in. Man is required to anser the knock and voluntarily open the door in order to be saved. That takes an act of the will.

HP: I agree. Jesus sia, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.” That does not say that all that are drawn will be saved, or all would be saved. I know neither of us are universalists so we must conclude that the disconnect in some being lost is not a failure on God’s part to draw, but on man’s part in rebellion against God’s drawing. Man can indeed resist the drawing of God.

HP: Agreed. The Holy Spirit must indeed enlighten the heart of man, but again that enlightenment, that drawing, is passive and can be resisted by man.

 

Right.

Some people are `sorry' but they will not change: they refuse to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. To repent means to decide `I have been living wrongly, and that will change: I have decided to follow Jesus, He is now my Lord, and I will live accordingly.'

 

HP: Repentance is not simply the necessitated results of belief. Man is called on first to repent, then to believe. The prophets of old came preaching repentance. Jesus first message ever recorded was, “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Paul and the apostles preached repentance, not as merely the necessitated results of belief, but rather as an action of the will that must be taken, without which no salvation is possible.

The greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen was founded on a clarion call to repentance, again, as an act of the will as opposed to a necessitated result of belief. God calls upon men, and that in the form of a command, everywhere to repent, then believe, and to remain faithful to the end.

 

HP: Certainly we all can have uncertainties in our theology, but we should never entertain absurdities, to say nothing of placing absurdities upon God in the name of ‘His way are higher than our ways.’

It is an absurdity to believe that God is the sole cause of mans salvation and deny double predestination. Double predestination is the logical end, and the only logical end, of that position.

I am glad, none the less, that you see the error of that which Calvin admitted was the logical and inescapable end of his theology, i.e., double predestination.

 

Grace Trumps !!!

 

More absurdity from HP there is no double predestination.

 

If you were to die right now, and stand before God, and He were to ask you: "Why should I let you into my heaven,?" what would you answer?

 

Morgan, I can't help but ask, when you go back to visit your Mom, do they let you take communion?