Featured Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

I try very hard to keep them at the door but their strategy has changed in the last few years. They used to want to start a bible study with you but they lost so many doing this, that now they are trained to avoid anyone where they get stiff resistance and just zero in on the pigeons.

They had no trained Greek or Hebrew scholars on their translation committee.

 

The Articles of Faith is what the Nazarenes denomination believes. It appears that you talked to some people in the Nazarene church who may have strayed or were confused about what Nazarenes believe. Perhaps you did not understand completely or took something out of context.

Any denomination believes in accordance with their agreed upon statement of faith. There are always some within any denomination that are on the fringe of what the denomination actually believes. Some books are written by members of a denomination, trying to change the statement of faith of their denomination. With the internet available, it is easy to go to their webpage and determine what the denomination actually believes.

 

See, you bring Calvin into this again, when I said nothing about Jesus being a Calvinist. You keep telling folks to stop putting words in your mouth, then you put words in people's mouths.

You could say OSAS is a steaver doctrine for that matter and call everyone who believes this doctrine a steaverist. You have bought into someone's misconception that this doctrine began somehow with Calvin.

I can give you my testimony of how I came to embrace OSAS. About fifteen years ago God called me to repentance from a life of living in the world and placed in me a desire to study His word. I learned of this controversy among believers, that some believed a Christian could lose their salvation and some believed in OSAS. So I set out into the scriptures to find for myself which position was correct. After about six months of study and prayer I settled in on OSAS. Now, I did this BEFORE I ever read anything from this Calvin fellow and without ever reading anything from Calvin I came to my conclusions.

So, I absolutely believe Jesus and His apostles taught eternal security in Christ. That is the conclusion I came to by reading what they wrote and without any help from this man called Calvin. It was only afterwards, when people started calling me a Calvinist that I decided to read some of what this TULIP was all about.

 

Here again, should I call you a 4 point Arminian or however many points it is that you agree with him? Does this make any sense to you? The way I see this is that anyone who fails at any of the 5 TULIP points then they fail to be a Calvinist.

 

This is why I was very surprised this woman was willing to engage with me for such a long time (30 minutes is very long for a JW) . She obviously felt very comfortable in her knowledge of the scriptures, but she didn't know who she was up against :tongue3:. The funny part was when I asked her what she thought about Ephesians 2:8-9 she replied, "I don't think I am familiar with that passage". I told her that I worship Jehovah and she said well people can be decieved and worship Jehovah incorrectly, I said then you could be deceived, and she would laugh and say "Oh no, I am not decieved". So I said how do you know you are not decieved and she said because I read the scriptures, so that brought me right into the New World mistranslation and then she was unable to defend her book.

I believe the best way to get through to a JW is to show them how riddiculus it is to believe in a translation that is for one very recent (only 60 years old) and secondly has no credible scholarly support. You have to get to the root of the problem, wrong book equals wrong beliefs.

 

HP: Well, that is not as far out as a book I read that says that one was condemned for eating a piece of fruit.

Are you suggesting that it cannot be sin for one to look at or read something they honestly believe is an affront to common decency and a Holy God? Maybe you are just over stating something that in reality you have never witnessed happening? Why would you throw such a comment out in such a way that would tell one that if in fact they would go to the CotN that they would encounter actions such as you describe? I personally know many attending a CotN for many years and I have never once encountered any such thing happen to them nor suggest that such would occur if I would attend.

 

Hyperbole, HP. I'm sure you understand. :thumbsup:

Do you want some real examples? madre comes from 5 generations of Wesleyans, Free Methodists and Nazarenes and, in spite of my IFB raising served 13 years with the UMC and one with the CotN. Here's a few examples that could potentially lead to a shipwreck of faith: tobacco in any form, alcohol in any form, reading magazines with scantily clad women on the cover, dancing, going to the motion picture theater, card playing, wearing any jewelry including a wedding ring, fancy dresses and short hair on the women folk..... I figure anyone having such a tenuous grip on their salvation should entrust it to someone strong enough to hold on to what He saves.

 

HP: First, your last sentence makes no sense to me. Maybe I am just not reading it as I should.

It would appear that I have had contact with numerous individuals and groups that have stronger standards than do the Nazarenes. From everything I can gather, the Nazarenes have lost their testimony on practically every notion you mention above......but according to Scripture, eating a piece of fruit could be potentially danger to ones faith.

Have we forgotten the admonition of Scripture? "Anything not of faith is sin?" or "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin?" I say anyone of the things you mentioned, and a whole lot more, "COULD BE" potential to sin, (depending on individual light and knowledge, or even requirement by God to them personally that may not be required by God in the lives of others) and sin is indeed "potentially" fatal to ones relationship with God.......or have you bought into the OSAS notion as so many have?

 

The point I was trying to make - and apparently doing a poor job - is simple. There are some in the Holiness camp that see the potential of a believer to lose their salvation at every turn. It comes across as if a saved person is only saved to the degree the individual is able to conduct themselves in a way that is appropriately holy. Any perception of wrongdoing is grounds to proclaim the individual as lost again thus my comment on the tenuous grip.

Within the Holiness camp are those that hold that an individual's ability to remain saved is dependent on the individual and their appearance of holiness. In my experience I have witnessed folk proclaiming to stand in need of being re-saved because of a perceived failure on their part to maintain a standard of holiness based mainly on the long-standing traditions of the local congregation.

It raises the question that begs an answer: Who does the saving? Is it Jesus and His finished work or is an individual's ability to maintain a prescribed standard of living? In the real world I had to contend with folks who were mean spirited and obstinate but because they neither smoked, drank or played cards were considered in good standing within the church. There were other folks who had by all evidence a genuine conversion experience who were continually discouraged in their walk because their progress toward entire sanctification was deemed too slow.

It often appeared as if one's salvation experience is akin to plucking petals off a daisy, "He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not." I do not believe that to be found anywhere in Scriputure.

 

I have many debates with you on this topic of OSAS and if my memory serves me right, you held the position that sin could not cause a person to lose their salvation but only chosing to not believe anymore. Have you changed your poisition on this? Can sin void a Christian's salvation in your pov?

 

You hit the nail on the head brother! :thumbsup: This is what happens to those who hold to the pov that one can lose their salvation, they become as you described here, whether they believe so or not, subconsciencly they look down their noses at others while ignoring the person in the mirror.

 

HP: I have no idea where you got that position from, but it was not from me. As to your last question, sin can indeed affect ones salvation subsequent to a 'salvation experience.'

 

PadreDurand, you might be able to find some in the Baptist camp that believe the earth is flat. (Relax all you Baptists. Just as an illustration of a point:thumbsup I personally would not characterize whole movements by the odd notions of some.

I am far more concerned with your views than anyone else's not on this list. Let me ask you. Does sin in the life of a believer have the potential of separating them from God? Do you hold to OSAS? Do you believe one can backslide, and turn their back on God via sin in their life? If so, would they be in need of 'doing their first works over' in order to restore a right relationship with God? If they fail to repent and turn again to God ,is there any hope of salvation for them?

 

HP: Thats right Steaver. If you have no real evidence, just make it up. One thing about putting up your own ducks to shoot at is that the target is not able to defend itself or move.

 

Then Jesus' death was not enough for you. Sad position to hold. For you sin everyday.

 

Complete lack of understanding regeneration, born-again. Unless one understands this, one will never understand the bible's teaching of OSAS.