Church Order

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by J. Jump, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    What is the Biblical order for the church? Should the church be congregational/deacon led? Or should the church be led by a board of elders with deacons in a servant role? Please provide your Scriptural backing for your views.
     
  2. jacob62

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    Ephesians 4:11 It was he(Jesus)who gave some to be apostles,some to be prophets,some to be evangelists,and some to be pastors and teachers--1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles,second prophets,third teachers,then workers of miracles,also those having gifts of healing,those able to help others,those with gifts of administation,and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
     
  3. TCassidy

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    Neither one. The church is pastor lead and congregationally governed.

    Christ is the head of his church (Col. 1:18, etc.) and all believers are priests (1 Pet. 2:9).

    Elders (pastors) are to rule well (1 Tim 5:17) and the congregation is to affirm the rule of the pastors (Acts 15:25; Philippians 2:2).
     
  4. J. Jump

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    Jacob,

    Not sure that answers the question exactly. I see your point in that God has given different people to the church for different functions, but how is the authority structured at your church or how should it be structured according to Scripture.

    Thanks for your thoughts. God's blessings to you and your family!

    TCassidy,

    Thanks for your response, but let me ask you some questions so I understand where you are coming from.

    Are you saying that it is the pastor's responsibility to come up with the budget all on his own and have the congregation vote to approve it or disapprove it. Is the pastor the only that that interviews potential cadidates to view vacant positions and then the congregation votes to approve or disapprove of his selection.

    You don't have deacons listed at all. Is there no place for the deacons?

    You have Elders pularized. Is there more than one elder at a particular church or is the pastor the only elder?

    And one last question . . . what does the fact that all believers are ministers have to do with the way a church is organized as far as authority goes?

    Thanks for the clarification . . . I think there are a lot of people that are going to church's that are "ran" a certain way and don't know if it is correct or not, they just go with the flow. So I am interested in hearing other people's points of view on this issue.

    Thanks for taking the time to express your views.! God's blessings to you and your family!
     
  5. Gold Dragon

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    Neither one. The church is pastor lead and congregationally governed.

    Christ is the head of his church (Col. 1:18, etc.) and all believers are priests (1 Pet. 2:9).

    Elders (pastors) are to rule well (1 Tim 5:17) and the congregation is to affirm the rule of the pastors (Acts 15:25; Philippians 2:2).
    </font>[/QUOTE]And conflicts across several congregations were settled by the council of Jerusalem. (Acts 15)
     
  6. jacob62

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    It states plainly in 1Cor 12:28 And in the church God has appointed 1st apostles-2nd prophets.....To not understand this is strange.Basic reading is a course I think Ive mastered."The dog was brown".What color was the dog? Brown.If you cannot read and comprehend this,you have reading problems,or you do not want to believe what the bible says,or it does not agree with what you want.As a person in journalism,I am surprised that you dont understand this Jason.You seem like a very smart person.1st apostles...is the bible outdated because we have not heard of any modern day apostles?Or perhaps the modern church does not want an apostle?I do not know,but I can read...God gave the church 1st apostles...Notice God did not have the sheep elect the shepard,He appointed an apostle.If Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow,is the bible not also?
     
  7. J. Jump

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    See that's why I really don't like these types of boards. A person comes on with a legitimate question and then asks for clarification and all you get back is sarcasim.

    Jacob, I appreciate your response, but do you really think that you need to poke fun of someone becuase they wanted to make sure that they understood you completely.

    Wtih one undergraduate degree, almost completed a second and a master's degree, I'm pretty sure I understand the basic concepts of reading.

    The way you wrote your reply obviously didn't make sense to me or I wouldn't have asked for clarification. See that's why we have so much miscommunication going on today, because if someone tries to clarify something to make sure they know where someone is coming from they are made out like idiots.

    Now hopefully I can ask the next two questions without a remark as to my reading ability so I can once again try to ascertain what your understanding is to the posted question.

    Do you believe that God still appoints apostles today? Do you still believe there are prophets today? If so could you explain your understanding of what an apostle and a prophet is according to Scripture.
     
  8. jacob62

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    I apoligize if I offended you by replying to you so plainly.I was not intending to poke fun at your abilities,but if the scripture states something plainly,we can either try to"get around it"-count it as outdated-or try to believe it even though it does not make sense or seems like it contradicts other scripture.I have ran into this many times and am no expert at all.The scripture that TC gave must also be true as well as the ones I gave.Yes, I believe God still appoints apostles and prophets.In the past,some were killed by Gods people,and always were persecuted.I know of only one who claims to be an apostle and he will make you mad.I will back out now and let others answer these questions.Again I apoligize if you were offended.
     
  9. TCassidy

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    No.
    No.
    Yes. There is a place for deacons. To oversee the mundane daily needs of the church so the pastors can give themselves to ministry of the word.
    All pastors are elders. The number of pastors at any single church is dictated by the size of the church and its needs.
    We all have equal authority in the matters pertaining to the governing of the church.
     
  10. csmith

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    J.Jump

    I appreciate your question.

    I am at a location without my Bible, but we do know that the Scriptures indicate that Christ is the head of the church. Not recognizing that is the greatest oversight that many churches are guilty of. From what I can tell in the Scriptures, he never did and never will relinquish that position.

    I say this because there is a circle of baptist churches who hold to an extreme view of pastoral authority. They won't come out and say it, but their actions indicate that the pastor is "where the buck stops".

    I once attended a church like this. You were expected to see the pastor before buying a car, having children, buying a house, etc. That type of church order is abusive and miserable.

    Many baptist churches are ran by dictators that expect blind loyalty. Anything less is not tolerated. They have the heart of Diotrophes and it robs from and true church order that could exist under the headship of Christ.
     
  11. TCassidy

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    I suspect some of the problem may be due to the modern "Pentecostal" definition of "Apostle." Or "Prophets."

    The word "Apostle" comes from the Greek word "apostolos" meaning "messenger." A person who is sent to someone who is bearing a message.

    Paul was an "apostle" in the sense that he was sent to the gentiles bearing the message of Jesus Christ. Paul was not an "Apostle" in the sense of the Twelve. Today we don't have "Apostles" in the sense of the Twelve, but we do have "apostles" who are sent to the lost with the message of salvation, but today we call them "missionaries."

    The same may be said of "prophets." In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek word translated "prophets" is "prophetes" which, in Greek thought was a man who was "an interpreter of hidden things." Today every preacher, if he is doing the job God wants him to do, fills the roll of "prophet" in the sense of being "an interpreter of hidden things." As a preacher opens the bible and begins to preach, he will exposit, or expose, the hidden things of the word of God to those listening.
     
  12. jacob62

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    TC,let me understand you,you are saying that God put in the church 1st missionaries then preachers then teachers?
     
  13. J. Jump

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    Jacob your apology is accepted.

    CSmith I would agree that some have lost sight of Christ as the Head of the church altogether. Some are just giving lip service to Him as the Head.

    TCassidy thanks for answer my questions. Let me ask you one more question. Are only pastors allowed to be elders? Or can a lay spiritually mature lay person be an elder?

    As to your comments regarding Jacob's post, could you clarify what you mean by Paul was an apostle, but not as one of the 12 were apostles?

    Thanks again each of you for your comments and insights. I'm looking forward to reading other's ideas, thoughts and beliefs.
     
  14. TCassidy

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    God put first in the church messengers, then preachers, then evangelists, then pastor/teachers.

    Some of those first messengers were the 70 who were sent with a message in Luke 10:1 and 17. Others were the 12. And yet others were Matthias in Acts 1:25, 26, Barnabas and Paul in Acts 14:14, James the brother of Jesus in Gal 1:19, and Jesus Himself in Hebrews 3:1. Note that totals 17 men in the New Testament who are called "apostles."

    And literally dozens of people all through the New Testament were sent to preach as preachers.

    And evangelists who tell others about Christ in their daily lives, at home, in school, on the job, and at the post office.

    And pastor/teachers who have a specific calling and gifting to exposit the word of God to His people.
     
  15. jacob62

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    So in your belief,there is no apostle leading the church today?
     
  16. TCassidy

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    I make no distinction between "clergy" and "laity." All pastors are, by definition, elders and all elders are, by definition, pastors. Not all pastors are fully supported by their churches but rather many work a secular job. They are no less pastors than the over-paid pastor of a mega-church.
    Paul was an "apostle" but was not one of the 12. After the death of Judas we see that Matthias was appointed to fill that vacancy.
     
  17. TCassidy

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    When you have the real Apostle in charge you don't need any fake "Apostles." [​IMG]

    Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus."

    Jesus Christ is the one and only Apostle of the faith today. [​IMG]
     
  18. jacob62

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    Also ,should a messanger be leading a church?Thank you for your wisdom.
     
  19. J. Jump

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    So is the apostleship of Paul different from that of the 12. Did the 12 have responsibilities or giftings that differed from Paul or vice versa. Other than Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and I don't believe any of the 12 had that charge.

    Thanks again!
     
  20. gb93433

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    I assume you have never pastored a large church to make such a comment. I assume you would consider Charles Spurgeon to have been over paid too? But certainly you have read the writings of Spurgeon to know what he writes about the pastor of a large church. The larger the church the more humble the pastor must be.
     

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