CHURCH ORIGEN (or what happened)

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by A_Christian, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. A_Christian

    A_Christian
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    Our Sunday School class is presently studying
    the origin of the CHURCH. Obviously, it is
    based on the Bible (where possible); however, we
    are also going into historical records outside
    the Bible.

    Origen seems to be one of the problems. Origen
    lived around 210 AD and was the Head Master of
    the catechistical school in Alexandria. Our
    church considers him very influential in bring
    about much of the heretical teaching that found
    a place in the christendom. Among them are the
    following:

    Scriptural interpretations are allegorical by
    nature.
    The redeemed can become lost again.
    Infant baptism is established throught Origen's
    "Comments on Romans"

    Origen was highly influenced by Hellenistic thought (Greek Philosophy).
     
  2. neal4christ

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    That's news to me. I thought Origen was a universalist. :confused:

    God Bless You,
    Neal
     
  3. neal4christ

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    He wasn't the only church father that was. I believe (please, correct me if I am wrong) Augustine was too. And I am sure there were others as well.

    God Bless You,
    Neal
     
  4. thessalonian

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    He wasn't the only church father that was. I believe (please, correct me if I am wrong) Augustine was too. And I am sure there were others as well.

    God Bless You,
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, your right Neal there were others. Among them Paul the Apostle.

    Acts 17:28, 26:14, 1 Cor 15:33, and Titus 1:12 are all known to be quotes from pagans.


    I can't recall the verse but Peter also uses a word for Hell that is only know to have been used prior to that in pagan literature.

    There is good reason for this if you look in Romans 1 and 2.

    Romans 1:19
    because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    Romans 2:14-15
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

    The tendancy of Protestantism seems to be reviled by everything that is in paganism. But it is the Cathoic view that Paul in Acts 17 with the tomb of the unknown God episode, that a better way to evangelized them is to appeal to the things in their culture that are true and have been placed there by God through there examination of nature and the truths that he has planted in each man's heart.

    Blessings
     
  5. neal4christ

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    Do you think that He subscribed to it at the same level as some of the church fathers (I must admit that I don't know the exact extent they were influenced by Greek philosophy, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate some were more than others)? I don't understand the Acts 26:14 one. What is the pagan quote?

    God Bless You,
    Neal
     
  6. neal4christ

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    I believe it is the word Tartarus.

    God Bless,
    Neal
     
  7. thessalonian

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    I believe it is the word Tartarus.

    God Bless,
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. That's it.
     
  8. neal4christ

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  9. thessalonian

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    Do you think that He subscribed to it at the same level as some of the church fathers (I must admit that I don't know the exact extent they were influenced by Greek philosophy, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate some were more than others)? I don't understand the Acts 26:14 one. What is the pagan quote?

    God Bless You,
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that the Church fathers actually took his lead in aiding those outside the Church to see the truth using their own language and culture. I do not believe that because a Christian quoted a pagan means that he was influenced by it. The world around us speaks of God even the error speaks of truth. I was at a seminar on hearing imparment a couple weeks ago. Though the lady was a relativist, there was much in her presentation that I could view in a Christian sense that had meaning in a Catholic context.

    Have to say I have not grasped acts 26:14 yet either though I think it has something to do with the calmaities we fall in to when we resist God.
     
  10. neal4christ

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    Oh, I agree totally. I wasn't trying to imply that. I was just asking how much you thought they were influenced by it.

    In Christ,
    Neal

    P.S. I want to eventually teach philosophy (from a Christian perspective) and apologetics, so I am not afraid of the pagans. [​IMG] In fact, I will become quite familiar with them. [​IMG]
     
  11. thessalonian

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    I know this will stir up some anti-catholics but there was a missionary priest from New Guniea at our parish a couple years ago who told the story of the first missionaries who went to that country in the 1940's. Now these people were canabals. Gee, would I like to be assigned to go there. But they readily accepted Catholicism mainly because of the Eucharist which they easily grasped. As a side benifit the priests didn't get invited over for lunch I suppose. Interestingly enough, canibalism was the accusation against the Church in the early days.

    Blessings
     
  12. neal4christ

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. A_Christian

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    Well of course the canables understood the
    Catholic Eucharist---they ALSO believe it is
    what you eat that causes the change and not
    personal faith that GOD extends to individuals.

    It would make perfect sense to them-----even
    though they are wrong also.
     
  14. A_Christian

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    It must also be understood that it is through
    words that "GOD" ultimately conveys the TRUTH.
    God would be willing to use the most concise
    terms (yet not all the philosophical nonsense
    needed to be accepted). Greek was the language
    of many.
     
  15. thessalonian

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    False dichotomy #2587 and counting. If you are going to convince me of anything your going to have to understand Catholic theology better than this rather than putting up straw man after straw man and bowling them over. You really do look foolish with statements like the one above. Personal faith goes hand in hand with the Eucharist. There is no denial of it. It is absolutely neccessary in reception of the Eucharist or the sacrament is of no use to the one who recieves it.
     
  16. KenH

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    Yes, he was, as were four of the six theological schools in the early days of the post-apostolic church.
     
  17. neal4christ

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    There's my universalist friend! :D I was wondering if you would find that question. [​IMG] Sorry I haven't started another thread, but I plan to eventually, Ken. I have gotten distracted and my summer class is getting ready to start. But I will get it up one day! [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  18. A_Christian

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    thessalonain:

    Faith in the Priest's good standing before GOD.
    Faith in the power of the elements.
    Faith in the power of your church.
    Faith in the power of your pope.

    Faith that Christ paid it all forever and always?
    Not according to Catholic interpertations of
    the Lord's table.

    My dad was a Roman Catholic and I was christened
    one. I don't need a priest because I'm priest
    according to my Bible. My allegiance is to GOD
    only.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Augustine was greatly influenced by the allegorical theological center in Alexandria, Egypt. They allegorized the Word of God beyond what was authenticated in the Scripture. This is who Augustine came to spiritualize the Book of Revelation to the point where he was forced to think the Millennium was the complete church age and then there would be the end of the world and the Judgment for both just and unjust all at the same time. Allegorizing in Revelation allows the 'sky to be the limit' on what you expound from the holy Word of God. This method of interpretation has obscured His end time truth to both constituents of the Catholic Church as well as many Calvinistic type church, like the Reformed Baptists. This horrid mistake has been passed on down through the centuries, to the gleeful pleasure of Satan, our arch-enemy.
     
  20. KenH

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    Good deal, Neal. Good luck with your class. [​IMG] I have just received Tom Talbott's book on The Inescapable Love of God that I'll be reading over the coming weeks. I'm sure I'll have much to post and questions that will come from that book later in the summer.
     

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