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Church Polity

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by dan53, Feb 7, 2002.

  1. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    1 Peter 5
    2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
    4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm curious why you omitted verse 1. Is it because it begins,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The elders which are among you I exhort . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    So what is the point?
     
  3. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    Siegfried, Aaron answered your question. He stated that elders were not to be lords over God's heritage, His church. You asked for scripture, apparently not knowing the bible well enough to be aware of the writings of Peter. Aaron gave you the scripture. Elders are not to be lords over the church, but are to lead by example. You were wrong. Time to get over it!
     
  4. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    Time for me to chime in. As a pastor of long duration (I am in my 17th year of my present pastorate) and a seminary professor teaching both Baptist Polity and Philosophy of Baptist Ministry, let me say I agree with Tom. The church is to be pastor lead and congregationally governed, under the Headship of Christ. The biblical model has more than one bishop/elder/overseer filling the office we, today, call "pastor." But the pastors are not to be dictators or lords, but leaders and exhorters. The church of Jesus Christ is still governed by the congregation under the Headship of Christ. To abandon both Baptist polity and Biblical teaching in favor of Presbyterian "elder rule" is to get even farther from the Lord and His plan for His churches than most of the other terrible forms of church government many so-called baptists have fallen for! :(
     
  5. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    Siegfried, . . . You asked for scripture, apparently not knowing the bible well enough to be aware of the writings of Peter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thomas,

    Do you read what people post, or just make up stuff? Would you please show me on this thread where I asked for Scripture?

    If past experience is any guide, you will probably ignore that request since you cannot fulfill it. Your arrogant assumption of my ignorance appalls me.

    Pastor Larry,

    My point is that Peter acknowledged elders to be a valid form of church government, and that a multiplicity was the norm, although it's not demanded. Elders and pastors are synonymous. I agree that elders are not to dominate, although they must provide active leadership, not just an example (1 Tim. 4:17). It's my distaste for the single-pastor domination model that made me study the biblical model in the first place.

    I don't have a problem with a single elder serving as the leader in some sense. I don't oppose congregations choosing the elders. At this point I prefer that method, although I've never heard a sound explanation for why that needs to be the case. I would be grateful if you could explain that issue.
     
  6. aiki

    aiki Member

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    I just left a Baptist church where there was great contention over differences between Pastors and Elders. According to the Pastors, Elders held a lesser or different role than that of Pastor and were to be under the authority of the Pastor. The Elders, who basically run the church anyway they like, disagreed so vehemently they ousted the Pastors. Wow! What a mess!

    Are any of you aware of scriptural differences between Elder and Pastor?
     
  7. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    No, there is no distinction. The terms for elder, pastor, and bishop are all used for the same group of people in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5.

    The different terms are probably used to emphasize different functions of the same office.
     
  8. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    There was a Huck Finn quote in another thread, so I thought I'd keep the ball rolling.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Huck tells Mary Jane Wilks that in her uncle's church there were "no less than 17 clergy." But, he added, "they don't all of 'em preach the same day--only one of 'em." "Well, then," she asked, "what does the rest of them do?" "Oh, nothing much," Huck Finn replied. "They loll around, pass the plate, and one thing or another. But mainly they don't do nothing." "Well then, what are they for?" Mary Jane asked." Huck answered, "Why, they are for style. Don't you know nothing?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Note: That quote is not representative of my theology, lest I be accused of ignorance. :D :rolleyes: :D
     
  9. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Pastor Larry wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I think we also need to do away with the trend that requires multiple or plurality of elders. While I have no problem with a plurality of elders for churches who need them, there is no biblical command to have more than one. Even in cases with a plurality, there is, of necessity, a single head. I have a hard time with a Baptist church that is run by a plurality of elders. That sounds very Presbyterian to me and is not the biblical form of government. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Amen and amen. [​IMG]
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If a church has thousands of members (like NT churches did) then I could see having more than one pastor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I am curious that some have connected the New Testament model of plurality of elders with the idea of large church membership. I think you will be hard pressed to substantiate that claim. The mention of elders (plural) is consistent throughout the New Testament. I am surprised that so many object to it.

    For clarification - I am using the term "elder" in the sense of ordained minister, pastor; and though I believe elders are leaders, I believe the church is congregationally governed.
     
  11. TJAcorn

    TJAcorn New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    1 Peter 5
    2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Aaron,

    The point of these verses is that the elders should not be as lords but they are to be examples. If they are not in a position of leadership (not lordship - there is a difference) then why is it stressed that they should should be examples? The truth is that they are to be in a position of leadership. These verses do not help you argument.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy
    :
    Elders are not to be lords over the church, but are to lead by example. You were wrong. Time to get over it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    This is true, elders should not be lords but they should lead and lead by example! However, just because elders should not be lords does not mean that a single pastor can be lord - he also should lead by example.

    As a moderator of 2 forums I would expect that you would have some tact and courtesy in your discussion. Ending a message with "You were wrong. Time to get over it!" is hardly called for.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry
    :
    I have a hard time with a Baptist church that is run by a plurality of elders. That sounds very Presbyterian to me and is not the biblical form of government. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Since it sounds Presbyterian does this make it wrong? Do the Baptist own 100% of the truth? You shouldn't judge something because "another denomination believes that, so it must be wrong"

    Trevor
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I'm all for a plurality of elders. I'm not for a governing "board" who thinks it's their job to set the agenda for the congregation.

    The pastors are there to support the weak, and to resist sin and corruption through the preaching of the Word, and to offer their lives as examples.

    Their office does carry some weight of authority, but only the authority to DEFEND. Not to dictate.

    The elders are not the bosses.
     
  13. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    Their office does carry some weight of authority, but only the authority to DEFEND. Not to dictate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think there's room for some middle ground between "only defending" and "dictating."

    Shepherding is more than just fighting off wolves and taking care of the wounded sheep. It also involves leading them where they need to go when they're not smart enough to figure out the way.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Don't forget. The elder is a sheep too.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    I am curious that some have connected the New Testament model of plurality of elders with the idea of large church membership. I think you will be hard pressed to substantiate that claim. The mention of elders (plural) is consistent throughout the New Testament. I am surprised that so many object to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I find it fascinating that no one defending the necessity of plurality of elders ever stopds to ask "How many churches?" The plural use of elders in the NT always seems to have reference to a city, where it seems of necessity you would be talking about a plurality of churches. Where you have a plurality of churches, you will of necessity have a plurality of elders; that does not mean at every church however.

    Trevor, the issue with being "Presbyterian" has nothing to do with the Presbyterians themselves. It has to do with the fact that the Presbyterians do not follow the biblical model of church government.
     
  16. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    I find it fascinating that no one defending the necessity of plurality of elders ever stops to ask "How many churches?" The plural use of elders in the NT always seems to have reference to a city, where it seems of necessity you would be talking about a plurality of churches. Where you have a plurality of churches, you will of necessity have a plurality of elders; that does not mean at every church however.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, some of us have stopped to ask, and think. ;) If you take, for example, the elders of the church at Ephesus (Acts 20), that had a job of feeding the flock, to be referring to all the different churches (plural) of the city, you must also make it stand that the church at Ephesus (singular) is all the churches at Ephesus (plural), and therefore the elders were elders of ALL the churches at Ephesus. So down goes autonomous churches and congregational government. So it goes with the church at Thessalonica (I Thess. 5:12,13), the church at Jerusalem (Acts 15; 16:4; 21:17,18), the church at Philippi (Phil. 1:1), etc. But perhaps it would be even better to note Acts 14:23:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And when they had ordained them ELDERS in every church...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I think church can be used collectively. Furthermore, understanding that "church" can mean the total number of saved people without regard to a particular locale (i.e., building), the church at Ephesus could be made up of a number of churches. I don't think your argument is stronger than mine in any way.

    Acts 14:23 uses the word κατα and it is translated as "every" apparently only here in the NT uses (NASB). It seems that they appointed elders "according to" the churches. I do not know that we must see a distributive use of it here.

    [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  18. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    See how the unbiblical teaching of a "universal church" can twist the rest of your doctrine? :(
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    See how the unbiblical teaching of a "universal church" can twist the rest of your doctrine? :(<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Or how it can straighten it out.
     
  20. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    Don't forget. The elder is a sheep too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, but the elder is also the pastor, which comes from the Greek word for shepherd.

    Pastor Larry wrote,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I find it fascinating that no one defending the necessity of plurality of elders ever stopds to ask "How many churches?" The plural use of elders in the NT always seems to have reference to a city, where it seems of necessity you would be talking about a plurality of churches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have thought about that, and I agree that sometimes the reference is to a plurality of churches. I don't think there's strong evidence that it is always the case.

    1 Tim. 5:17 also argues for a plurality of elders in one church. In that verse Paul distinguishes between elders that merely rule well and those that also work hard at preaching and teaching. That verse suggests a plurality of elders having different responsibilities within one church.

    I think that's the only way to look at that verse unless you want to say that some churches in a given city might have had no preaching and teaching elders, only rulers. I doubt that was the case.
     
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