Church Rapture seen in Revlation 4:1-4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, May 2, 2015.

  1. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Revelation 4:1-4 seems very clear that Snatching away or Rapture of the church has taken place at this point in Revelation just before the Tribulation starts.

    Here is a quote I found from a commentary on Revelation 4:1-4.

    "To prepare John for the vision, a trumpet was sounded, and he was called up into heaven, to have a sight there of the things which were to be hereafter. He was called into the third heavens. (1.) There is a way opened into the holiest of all, into which the sons of God may enter by faith and holy affections now, in their spirits when they die, and in their whole persons at the last day. (2.) We must not intrude into the secret of God's presence, but stay till we are called up to it.

    To prepare for this vision, the apostle was in the Spirit. He was in a rapture, as before (Revelation 1:10), whether in the body or out of the body we cannot tell; perhaps he himself could not; however all bodily actions and sensations were for a time suspended, and his spirit was possessed with the spirit of prophecy, and wholly under a divine influence. The more we abstract ourselves from all corporeal things the more fit we are for communion with God; the body is a veil, a cloud, and clog to the mind in its transactions with God. We should as it were forget it when we go in before the Lord in duty, and be willing to drop it, that we may go up to him in heaven. This was the apparatus to the vision. Now observe, The vision itself. It begins with the strange sights that the apostle saw, and they were such as these: - 1. He saw a throne set in heaven, the seat of honour, and authority, and judgment. Heaven is the throne of God; there he resides in glory, and thence he gives laws to the church and to the whole world, and all earthly thrones are under the jurisdiction of this throne that is set in heaven. 2. He saw a glorious one upon the throne. This throne was not empty; there was one in it who filled it, and that was God, who is here described by those things that are most pleasant and precious in our world: His countenance was like a jasper and a sardine-stone; he is not described by any human features, so as to be represented by an image, but only by his transcendent brightness. This jasper is a transparent stone, which yet offers to the eye a variety of the most vivid colours, signifying the glorious perfections of God; the sardine-stone is red, signifying the justice of God, that essential attribute of which he never divests himself in favour of any, but gloriously exerts it in the government of the world, and especially of the church, through our Lord Jesus Christ. This attribute is displayed in pardoning as well as in punishing, in saving as well as in destroying sinners. 3. He saw a rainbow about the throne, like unto an emerald, Revelation 4:3. The rainbow was the seal and token of the covenant of the providence that God made with Noah and his posterity with him, and is a fit emblem of that covenant of promise that God has made with Christ as the head of the church, and all his people in him, which covenant is as the waters of Noah unto God, an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and sure. This rainbow looked like the emerald; the most prevailing colour was a pleasant green, to show the reviving and refreshing nature of the new covenant. 4. He saw four-and-twenty seats round about the throne, not empty, but filled with four-and-twenty elders, presbyters, representing, very probably, the whole church of God, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament state; not the ministers of the church, but rather the representatives of the people. Their sitting denotes their honour, rest, and satisfaction; their sitting about the throne signifies their relation to God, their nearness to him, the sight and enjoyment they have of him. They are clothed in white raiment, the righteousness of the saints, both imputed and inherent; they had on their heads crowns of gold, signifying the honour and authority given them of God, and the glory they have with him. All these may in a lower sense be applied to the gospel church on earth, in its worshipping assemblies; and, in the higher sense, to the church triumphant in heaven mh."

    Clearly this commentary shows the Church in heaven notice "to the church triumphant in heaven." At this point in Revelation 4:1-4 we see this commentary which reveals the church, "in their whole persons at the last day will be with God and Christ, the Last Days of this the church age.

    the four and twenty elders we see are "the representatives of the people" that is the righteous because " We know they are the church because "They are clothed in white raiment, the righteousness of the saints, both imputed and inherent; they had on their heads crowns of gold, signifying the honour and authority given them of God, and the glory they have with him."

    we see here "All these may in a lower sense be applied to the gospel church on earth, in its worshipping assemblies; and, in the higher sense, to the church triumphant in heaven" the triumphant church in heaven.

    Very clear the dispensational pre-trib, pre-mil, view of the passage.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Does the "quote" have an author?

    The so-called hermeneutic of pre-trib-dispensationalism, or should I call it pre-trib-Darbyism, is the literal interpretation of Scripture. Now anyone who sees the so-called "snatching away" of the Church in Revelation 4:1-4 is having "pipe dreams" and that is the truth!

    Revelation 4:1-4
    1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.


    The Apostle Peter in his 2nd Epistle, following his description of the Return of Jesus Christ for HIS Bride {Chapter 3}, has the following to say about those who twist Scripture to suit their ideology:

    2 Peter 3:14-16
    Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    What a stretch of the imagination.

    1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.
    2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;
    3 and he that sat was to look upon like a jasper stone and a sardius: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, like an emerald to look upon.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold. Rev 4

    John, not the Church, was 'snatched away' exactly as Paul was to the 'third heaven' to see these revelations and write them down.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The pre-tribbers, starting with John Nelson Darby have a vivid imagination. Darby claimed he got the whole concept from Isaiah 32. These folks would do much better to stick to writing fiction like the "Left Behind series" by Lahaye and Jenkins.
     
  5. shodan

    shodan
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1
    The 'commentary' quoted in the first post is a prime example of eisegesis (reading one's own views INTO the text) rather than exegesis.

    As George Eldon Ladd wrote in his commentary, "John heard the voice which had already spoken to him (1:10), summoning him to come up hither to receive further revelations of future events. . . . There is no reference in 4:1 to the rapture of the church, the language is addressed exclusively to John and refers only to his reception of the revelations of the book."

    So, also, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, The New International Greek Testament Commentary, etc.

    As Ladd notes, there is also confusion with referencing the primary 'rapture' passage in 1 Thess. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/
     
  6. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    To say nothing of the genre of apocalyptic that is Revelation and how that Jewish genre of literature has never been literalized or futurized until Dispies got ahold of the text.
     
  7. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,872
    Likes Received:
    324
    Anyone else notice the gnostic idea of material bad spirit good in the op? That jumped out at me and of course makes me wary of everything else it was saying.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    No but I noticed:
    And all this time I thought the Church was not in the Old Testament! Glad to find out that the SBC was correct when they confirmed:

     
  9. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Just to let you guys know the commentary is from Matthew Henry, Revelation 4. Seems Henry saw "four-and-twenty elders, presbyters, representing, very probably, the whole church of God, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament state; not the ministers of the church, but rather the representatives of the people." This way before Darby ever came along.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I thought the Church was not in the Old Testament.

    So you are confessing that Darby invented new truths, received new revelation which negated certain parts of Scripture!
     
  11. The American Dream

    The American Dream
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    16
    Hal Lindsey's bank accounts believe in the rapture.
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    No Darby didn't Henry knew the truth and this post just proved it. You guys attacked the commentary as if a pre-trib guy wrote it, which proves before Darby taught it Henry did too!
     
  13. The American Dream

    The American Dream
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    16
    Darby should have started his theories with "once upon a time...."
     
  14. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Seems by the commentary he expanded on Matthew Henry's work, thus before Darby there was the teaching of Henry on Pre-trib church in heaven. Before him were many other groups and the early chruch fathers.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    So do Tim LaHaye's
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Henry was premil not pre-trib and you know it!
     
    #16 OldRegular, May 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2015
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Henry was premillennial, not pre-trib! You know that!
     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    The period of the church was a mystery to the old Testament prophets. God foreknew the church period would come and had it planned from eternity past. Just as He foreknew the choices each person would make concerning salvation and presdestinated them based on that foreknowledge of their choices.
    His plan for her.

    Israel was God's chosen people, nation, ALL mankind was to be saved by Grace through Faith, even in the O.T., From Adam all the way to the Calling of Abraham people were saved, by Grace through Faith. Then from Abraham to Christ the chosen people were to be the witnesses to all mankind, they failed and were set aside for a short period, that is 2000 years. Then the judgment of the whole earth comes before nation Israel is completely and fully restored in the Kingdom that will last according to John 1000 years.

    The custody and control of the Gospel that is the preaching of Christ was removed from Israel for a season, that season is the dispensation of Grace taught by Paul as the mystery revealed to Him. Very simple the church was always in God's plan.
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    You just read his commentary and saw pre-trib as did all the posters in this thread. They saw in those read outlined portions and started saying how Darbyites in that commentary were reading pre-trib into it, and yet the Commentary stands alone as predating Darby's pre-trib views, Henry was pre-mil and pre-trib by this commentary.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You are wrong. Henry says nothing about seeing resurrected bodies. He sees the 24 elders as representative of the Church. Unless you believe in soul sleep then the souls of all Saints go to heaven when they die!
     

Share This Page

Loading...