Churches of Christ...Continued

Eric,

bmerr here. "Not good singers" according to whom? Who are we to please when we worship, God or man? To please God, we must do those things which He has commanded.

If the instrument is involved, someone is playing it. At the very least, that one is beyond the doctrine of Christ, and without God (2 John 9). Those who approve of the players, and those who participate in worship with them are also beyond the doctrine of Christ, and without God.

Didn't mean to give you the wrong impression. Soloists are also not authorized, since they perform while everyone else is the audience. There is only One in audience during true worship.

"Degradation" due to the fact that God's commandment is no longer what is being submitted to, but man's desire. We are to please God, not man.

Pure speculation, sir. The fact of the matter is that God commanded Christians to "sing", and that is what Christians did in the NT, and now.

What would you say Paul was refering to, then, their belief? Is belief a form of the doctrine of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

DHK,

bmerr here. It is certainly my desire that people would render obedience to God's word on earth, just as the angelic host renders obedience to God's commands to them. God's commands for the heavenly host do not apply to men on earth, though, just as OT commands to the Jews to offer animal sacrifices do not apply to us under the NT.

If God desires instruments of music in Heaven, it is a totally separate matter from what He has commanded for us on earth. If He had desired for us to use them here, could He not have told us to do so?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

DHK,

bmerr here. It could be alot clearer. God could have inspired Paul to write, "...singing and making melody on musical instruments to the Lord" in Eph 5:19. There would be no question as to whether or not God desired the playing of musical instruments in worship.

This is not what was written though. God commanded "...singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord."

To turn your logic around, one would command the Heavenly host to believe the gospel, repent of sins, confess Christ as Lord, and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Jesus taught that His disciples should pray that God's will would be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven. This does not mean that God's will for the Heavenly host is the same as God's will for man. God wants all men to be saved (2 Pet 3:9). Is the Heavenly host in need of redemption too?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Darron,

bmerr here. It's just a matter of finding an instrument one can place inside his heart then, right?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Eric,

bmerr here. If the silence of the Scriptures does not forbid, why is it that Christ could not be a priest under the Old Testament?

In Heb 7:14, we read, "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood".

Why could Jesus not be a priest under the Mosaic Law?

Why is it that priests could only come from the tribe of Levi?

Is this not an argument from silence? It is. At no time did God ever prohibit priests from coming from the other tribes. He simply commanded that the priests come from the tribe of Levi. In doing so, He excluded all men from other tribes from serving as priests.

Noah is another example. God did not forbid him from using other kinds of wood, or even metals. He simply commanded Noah to use gopher wood.

The walls of Jericho are yet another. God did not specifically prohibit the priests from blowing trumpets of bull's horns. He simply commanded them to blow trumpets of ram's horns.

Lastly, Naaman was not specifically prohibited from dipping himself in the rivers of Abana and Pharpar. God simply commanded him to dip himself in Jordan.

No doubt, you will understand all of this, yet I fear that somehow you will fail to connect this principle to singing in NT worship, where God has not specifically prohibited instruments, but has simply commanded us to sing.

God knows what He wants. He wants what He has commanded. For people to claim to love God, yet insist on adding to His commands is nothing but a contradiction.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Darro,

bmerr here. Actually, I see OSAS as more of a "license to sin" than salvation by "faith only".

A life of obedience would be characterized by obedience to the Scriptures. Things like obeying the command to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Things like observing the Lord's Supper each Lord's day (Acts 20:7). Things like a capella singing in the worship. (Did you know that "a capella" means, "as the church"?)

Sadly, many would rather come up with excuses to avoid obeying God's commands, all the while claiming to love God. It's far from shocking. Mankind has done similarly throughout history.

Faithful men have stood up and proclaimed the word of God, and most have not wanted to hear it, preferring the traditions and doctrines of men.

You're right, I don't mind being called a "legalist". Moses would have been called a legalist by the standard you're using, since he did all that was commanded him.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Eric,

bmerr here. I disagree. These have not been answered. Place the unauthorized example alongside what is authorized.

All but a few priests of Levi, with a few from Judah, or Benjamin.

Six of the priests using ram's horns, one using a bull's horn.

Most of the ark made of gopher wood, with just the trim in poplar.

Dip six times in Jordan, and once in Pharpar.

However you want to look at it, what God has commanded, God has commanded. More or less is not authorized.

It may. From what I understand, "capella" is where we get the word "chapel" from. I'm not a linguist. I'll see if I can find out for sure.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Darron,

bmerr here. At the bottom of each of your posts you have several verses of Scripture displayed. One of them is 1 Cor 4:6b, which is translated, "Do not go beyond what is written", and "Follow only what is written in the Scriptures".

Yet, you still insist on the use of the instrument in worship, though the NT speaks nothing of a mechanical instrument in worship.

Why the apparent contradiction?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

It is certainly possible for us to do so. We're human, too.

But in this case, the Bible specifies the instrument that is to be plucked in accompaniment with our singing. It is the instrument of the heart (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16). If we are worshipping in spirit and in truth, then our minds will be engaged as we sing together, and we will be thinking about the words which we are singing.

All too often, I'm afraid our minds may be occupied with things of the world, as our lips and lungs "go through the motions", singing a song with which we have become too familiar. This would reflect our attitude toward the God of Heaven, for Whom we have less than due reverence.

You are correct, true worship is not simply "doing the right things". The Israelites were a prime example, for a large portion of their history, of a people "punching their tickets" at all the right stations, but failing to have proper reverence for the God they claimed to be serving. If anything can be learned from the Jews, it's that God doesn't just want the form. The proper attitude is also required if our worship is to be accepted by Him with Whom we have to deal.

But we must not go too far, and think that the form does not matter. Jesus said that those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

The right attitude by itself is not enough. The right actions by themselves are not enough, either. Please don't misunderstand me when I plead for doing only what the NT authorizes in worship. I'm not just pleading for the right form of worship, so we can be cold and ritualistic. I'm pleading for the proper form of worship out of a love for God, and a desire to please Him as my faith works through love. Love for God, and love for man as well.

It's because Jesus died for me that I want to serve Him. To serve Him, I must obey Him (Rom 6:16). Having become His servant, I desire to be a faithful servant. The only way I can be faithful is to continue to obey Christ.

So what does it say about one's attitude toward the One he claims to serve, if that one chooses which commands he will keep or not keep, based on whether the commands please him, or whether he considers doing something else to be adding or subtracting from the command? Why not, out of love for God, just do what we're told, according to what is written? At least then we know for sure that we are correct in our doing. We can then be sure that we are approaching the Throne of grace in "full assurance of faith" (Heb 10:22).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Eric,

bmerr here. That's what I've been trying to get at. How many instruments can we add before we are no longer teaching and admonishing one another, because we can no longer hear each other?

We need to understand that when we sing in worship, we are making an offering to God. Heb 13:15 reads, "By him [Christ] therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

God has specified here what He desires for us to offer to Him. No mechanical musical instrument can be the "fruit of our lips". Not even a harmonica.

No, but singing is what God has commanded us to offer him. Do we dare add to the sacrifice He has commanded?

It may be that I was told wrong. You seem to have the advantage with regard to linguistics, or at least you're faking it well :tongue3: .

I understood "a" to change the meaning of a word to negative only when it is part of the word, like "atheism". The phrase, "a capella" has it separate. Does it not matter if it's separate or part of the word?

In Christ,

bmerr