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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by poncho, Jul 22, 2004.
"A Dossier On Civilian Victims Of United States' Aerial Bombing Of Afghanistan"
Yep, It's war, tough stuff happens. Just spoke to a guy who just returned from a forward air base in the border region there, and talked about the number of casualties coming back from almost every chopper from the front. You don't hear anything about Afghanistan on the news any more, but there is still quite a bit of fighting going on. I am not being flippant about civilian deaths, it is a horrible thing, and should be avoided. I Just think about all the people who were murdered by the Taliban for shaving their beards among other infractions. My prayers are with our soldiers who are doing their duty, and in a majority of cases, being careful to maintain the safety and dignity of those who are not enemy combatants, and with the innocent civilians who are caught up in this mess as well.
More people don't die because of war. Everyone will die. It is a matter of how people will die. Unfortunately innocents die during war. Innocents die during abortion too. They also die at the hands of stupid drunks.
Innocents die. That is a product of a fallen world. It happened to Abel. It happened to Christ. It happens.
To spin this into some kind of pacifism is hilarious.
Sorry Poncho, peddle your anti-war drivel elsewhere.
I would have agreed with you a couple years back because I also bought into the we've been attacked and must defend ourselves and have revenge on those who perpetrated this great act mentality.
However I do not believe in this fantasy anymore. This is not a war for defense for revenge for peace for safety for security for the good of the United States for the world or the people of the world...this is a war of profits and nation building and of the greed of powerful men in our (global) soceity that will say or do anything to control what they perceive to be the ever shrinking supply of the earth's natural resources.
This is a war to control Urasia and especially Uzbekistan and the flow of power and profits that control will bring about.
The evidence of which is blatantly out in your face, and yet you will not question your "leaders motives" and behold the big picture here except to argue the fine points of some political parties good and bad points.
You look at any news article and the first thing that comes to your mind is the direction from which it comes...the right or the left.
You are sheeple and have been well trained to follow the orders of your servants. For decades you have listened to the media pound the idea that your government has the best interest of the people into your heads, and you believe this against all the evidence. Because you believe "if you are not for us you are against us" Who is us?
No this is a war for profits and control no matter what your servants tell you with the slick non-sequitors they use to deceive you.
Believe what you like. You will anyways as long as it goes along with the majority and the mindless group think and the words of your world leaders. I prefer the truth.
Ah, Poncho's obviously more enlightened than us poor slobs. Thanks for the revelation of "fact" in your post.
You mean you care if third world heathens die so you can pay 10cents less a gallon for gas?
Shame on you.
Why don't you move to another country if you hate this one so much?
Yeah sure, you say this while there's people out there defending you're right to say it. How ungrateful can you be?
Sorry, can't think of the rest of the standard replies right now.
I care about HUMAN BEINGS dying in wars faught for profit by liars and theives. Is that unamerican or unchristian?
Prove me to be wrong. Summon up all the sources and patriot garbage you can find from the these liars and theives that play on words and patriotism that wrap themselves in the flag and destroy our repblic.
So, deep is their deception that christians are howling for blood. Count me out. Count your blessing now while you can. You may not have much longer to do it.
You've read one too many conspiracy theories. We're protecting ourselves and it's simple as that. Our government is not wrong. If you don't believe this it is my Christian and patriotic duty to mock you, question your love for American, your salvation, and maybe your looks if you don't hush after the first volley.
Then have at it Christian sister. Grab a weapon and start killing whoever the President tells you to point it at.
Are you telling me you wouldn't do this if you were told to?
BTW people, I have been using sarcasm to make a point. Please don't get in a huff and believe I am truly questioning his salvation or love for his country. I agree with him for the most part.
In Nijmegen the city where I live there is this large square called 'Plein '44'.
During WWII some American pilots on a mission to bomb some factories in Nazi-Germany decided that because the weather was getting worse they would have to abort their mission. They looked around for a nice alternative target, because Bombercommand frowned on bombers returning with the explosives still on board. On their way home they saw these nice 'German' cities that looked very intact indeed. So they dumped heavy bombs designed to destroy fortified factories on top of the citycentres.
Remember 9/11? Now try to imagine how much carnage a real bombardment causes.
60 years of reconstruction later the scars are still visible in Nijmegen. This 2000 year old city was only bombed once as an afterthought. Now try to picture what happened to Coventry, or Dresden.
I wouldn't be interested in proving you wrong with facts poncho, because it would be a waste of time, wouldn't it? (You're not going to change your mind, are you?) But since you've already discounted all the "pro-war" information sources as liars and thieves, please tell us where you're finding your facts. What resources have you used to formulate your opinion?
Or are you, like at least one member of this board, truly in a position to know? (government, military, etc.) And what makes you think your source of information is more objective? Is it truly without agenda? If you say yes, then you are likely decieving yourself. Come on, be honest. What paper/internet site/tv news/hollywood activists are you accepting as flawless distributors of fact?
What war have been fought in all human history which was not a war for profits, either at the beginning or at the end ?
Okay, I went overboard some. I apologize to all.
I would ask just two more questions and hope for honest replies instead of the standard conspiracy theory theory reply.
Doesn't the official (government) version of the 9-11 attacks seem to you to have to many holes in it to not warrant an intense investigation.
Was the scene of this crime treated as a crime scene?
There is just to many questions left to be answered. (imho)
1) Yes, there are holes in it. Even though they should be investigated, they should be investegated in an objective manner. Loss of objectivity will always taint the result of an investigation - as we have daily proof on the news media (both right and left).
2) It's my recollection that that 9/11 was considered an act of war, rather than a crime. What would we have expected to find? Human remains, building remains, aircraft remains. Or are you speaking of "the whole situation" as a crime scene?
Personally, I think assigning blame to anyone in the U.S. for the attack is ridiculous. Could we have been better prepared? You bet! Were there terrible breaches of security and security protocol that need to be corrected? Yes! Who is to blame for the attacks? Al Quaeda - not George Bush or the Republicans, not Bill Clinton or the Democrats.
Holes? What holes? I doubt there are any holes in the evidence of who carried out the attacks, or who celebrated afterwards and praised the attackers of innocent civilians.
It's the attackers who are to blame. They made their choice and carried out their missions. Three out of four aircraft hit their targets. The very freedom we enjoy as Americans was used against us for harm.
I hope Poncho is not operating under the delusion that these Islamic terrorists will leave us alone if we will only mind our own business.
The words of Ronald Reagan still apply. This isn't a choice between war and peace but rather between war and surrender.
I may be operating under that delusion that the US government (or a rogue faction) may have had a hand in the destruction of the WTC. Just as you may be operating under the delusion that it didn't.
In any case we'll never know until we can set down and look at the evdence with out casting names and doubt at each other.
That argument is insanity to me. What motive would the US Gov't have to attack itself?
If something like that were to actually happen, do you seriously think it would remain secret? The first guy that could provide evidence would probably be granted immunity for his testimony and would gain millions from book deals.