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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rebel, Jul 18, 2015.

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  1. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    I find freedom of the will and free choice in scripture and the early church. What I don't find is determinism in either. I know you will disagree, but that's how I see it.
     
    #61 Rebel, Jul 25, 2015
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also find that our freedom to chose explicit throughout Scripture. Where I believe Open Theism has gone wrong is in its basic logic (e.g., if we freely chose between contingencies then God cannot have known the outcome of that decision). Arminianism is a bit different (free choices known by God) but still allows for the same mode of divine knowledge (God knows what will happen because he either knows us and plans accordingly, or he foresees what will occur and plans accordingly….I’ve heard it explained both ways). Some Calvinists hold a “hard determinism” theology whereby there are no “free choices.” All three positions (God does not know what will happen in the future; God plans according to what men will do; God controls the decisions of men who are unable to act freely within their nature), IMHO, have a very simplistic and anthropomorphic understanding of both God and men on this issue. You mentioned Scripture. Scripture presents men as freely choosing, but it also presents God as determining the outcome - what will occur - and even causing man’s obedience (e.g., Ezekiel 36: “I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances.”).
     
    #62 JonC, Jul 25, 2015
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Still heretical. Basically states God cannot exist apart from His Creation!
     
    #63 OldRegular, Jul 25, 2015
  4. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    That is absolutely not what it states. You should study it more. It basically means that God is both immanent and transcendent. But the Orthodox distinguish between God Himself and His "energies".
     
    #64 Rebel, Jul 25, 2015
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is not a matter of what you prefer but what Scripture teaches!

    Proverbs 14:12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
     
    #65 OldRegular, Jul 25, 2015
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are entitled to be wrong and you are. Theism teaches that God is both immanent and transcendent!


    Panentheisim is really nothing more than a slick philosophical way of avoiding the nonsense of pantheism but fails completely!
     
    #66 OldRegular, Jul 25, 2015
  7. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    You don't have to post a faulty definition of panentheism. I have studied it, and I know what it is. The part you put in bold is a complete fabrication. For example, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Nazarene scholar and professor Thomas Oord hold to panentheism, and their views are absolutely NOT what that bolded statement says. The Orthodox in particular are the most "Incarnational" Body in Christendom.

    Statements such as you posted are nothing more than smear efforts. And CARM is a trashy site.
     
    #67 Rebel, Jul 26, 2015
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I don't care whether you have studied it or not. You obviously did not learn much if you argue that panentheism teaches that the God of Scripture is both transcendent and immanent!

     
    #68 OldRegular, Jul 26, 2015
  9. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    That's what it teaches.
     
    #69 Rebel, Jul 26, 2015
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are deluded if you believe that but be happy in your delusion!
     
    #70 OldRegular, Jul 26, 2015
  11. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    And you in yours. But I look forward to meeting you in heaven.
     
    #71 Rebel, Jul 27, 2015
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God is NOT the author of sin and evil in calvinism, unless you take extreme Hyper views in it...

    And mankind is resposible before God, as we all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory, and all of us deserve eternal seperation from God, so its due to His grace alone that ANY of us make it!
     
    #72 Yeshua1, Jul 29, 2015
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are correct!
     
    #73 OldRegular, Jul 29, 2015
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some of our bethren seem to forgotten here that if the Lord left all of us to our own devices, none of us would get saved, as sinners do not seek out the Lord unless the Lord first seeks them!
     
    #74 Yeshua1, Jul 30, 2015
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