Cleveland and LeBron

Discussion in 'Sports' started by ccrobinson, May 11, 2010.

  1. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson
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    Say goodbye to LeBron James, Cleveland.

    I watched that pathetic excuse for a game tonight and I think pro basketball in Cleveland died. I think the Cadaverliers will lose, and possibly lose big, in Boston on Thursday night and I think LeBron James will become a free agent and leave Cleveland. I think he's mentally checked out on the team and franchise.
     
  2. TomVols

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    He'd better step it up and make a better showing. I don't think the market is very good right now for a great player from Oct-March.
     
  3. ccrobinson

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    Either you don't follow NBA basketball much, Tom, or you're being funny. :smilewinkgrin:

    Lebron's a two-time NBA MVP. Everybody would sign him if they could, but there seems to be 3 teams, Chicago, Cleveland and the Knicks, that have the best chance. Frankly, I don't see Lebron signing with the Knicks. I think he's either going to Chicago or he's staying in Cleveland.

    If he stays in Cleveland, I think Mike Brown gets fired. I think the blame for Cleveland's playoff failures gets laid at the feet of Brown. To a lesser degree, Danny Ferry gets some blame, because who's the 2nd best player on the Cavs? When Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, or Fat Shaq could be considered the 2nd best player on the team, you're not winning.

    BTW, I got to see Game 6 of the Celtics-Cavs series Thursday night in person. In high school, I followed the Celtics because of Larry Bird and I still like to see them win. Fun game. Deafening at times. I always knew that Fat Shaq was a bad free throw shooter. He looks bad on TV, but he looks even worse in person.

    Anyway, I think Lebron goes to Chicago. I think that's part of why they fired Vinny. I don't think Calipari goes to Chicago, but who would be surprised by anything that guy does? A Chicago team led by Lebron, Rose and Noah would be formidable. Follow that up with a sign and trade by Toronto of Bosh and some role players and you've got a team that can win championships.
     
  4. TomVols

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    I admit I don't follow the NBA as much as I used to. It just doesn't appeal to me much. That said, it does beg a question: Is Lebron enough to win a championship with? Answer: no. So it depends on who you surround him with. The Knicks? Forget it. They will sell the store to get him in, and won't have enough left for a Bosh. Even if they did, who are they going to get inside?

    CLE has to fire Brown and my neighbors to the north better worry. Cal might jump to Cleveland to coach Lebron and company.

    CHI still wouldn't have the pieces for a title with Lebron. Noah is a good role player. Rose is a great complement, but you have to have more than just a couple of pieces. And let's not forget they don't have a coach. I think they fired Vinny because he jst didn't fit. Hard to lure a player without a coach. Has CHI liked any coach since Phillip?

    D'Antoni couldn't get it done in PHX with a good nucleus. Why does anyone think he can do it in NY?

    Ferry is a joke with the Cavs. Jameson and Shaq have too much mileage. Ilgauskas, West, Varejo...nice pieces. But honestly, these guys aren't championship caliber. They have to go out and get a coach, make a good pick in the draft, and maybe they'll be back in the hunt. Lebron is special, but even Jordan couldn't do it by himself.

    But I suspect you questioned my Oct - March comment. Sorry, prove me wrong. What good is it to be the best team in the regular season? None if you're at home by Memorial Day.

    My gut feeling: 40% Lebron gets Brown fired and stays with a new coach. 30% he signs with CHI if they get a good hire. 10% he goes to the Knics. 20% says a mystery team jumps in out of the West. I have a theory or two, but I'll hold it to myself :)
     
    #4 TomVols, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
  5. ccrobinson

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    Let's start with the 2007 playoffs.

    In 20 games, Lebron averaged a 25-8-8 in the entire postseason and a 22-7-7 in the Finals against the Spurs. In the Eastern Conference Finals, the Cavs beat the Pistons, who were making their 5th straight conference finals appearance. In Game 5 of that series, Lebron scored 48 on 54.5% field goal shooting, to go with 9 rebounds and 7 assists. He scored 29 of Cleveland's last 30 points, including the team's final 25 points in a double-overtime victory. He concluded the night with the game-winning lay-up with 2 seconds left.

    How about the 2008 postseason?

    In 13 games, he averaged a 28-7-7, scoring 45 in Game 7 of the conference semifinals against Boston in the Garden. Boston went on to win the championship that year.


    How about the 2009 postseason?

    In 14 games, he averaged a 35-9-7.


    How about your own words?


    Having one great player has never, ever, ever been enough to win a championship and having one great player will never be enough to win a championship.

    You can't look at those playoff numbers and tell me that Lebron is an October-March player. You can't say that Lebron isn't enough to win a championship, then criticize him for not winning a championship.


    Yes, they would. Add Lebron to the Bulls current roster and you have a team ready to win now. Lebron plus the current Bulls roster beats Lebron plus the current Cavs roster.


    I think I said that.


    I don't. You can't win in the NBA without making defensive stops, and D'Antoni teams don't make defensive stops.


    You want to say these guys aren't championship caliber and then criticize Lebron too? No. You can't have it both ways.

    Defense rests. :wavey:
     
  6. TomVols

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    Let me clarify. I was specifically referring to this post-season. He did have a triple double in the elimination game. However, he also had a quad double if you count his turnovers. You don't make a case for being the best FA out there if you disappear like he did in game 5, for example. That said, there's too much splash not to bring him in, all else disregarded.
    I've never criticized him for not winning a ring yet. He's only what...24 or so"? He's a victim of circumstances to an extent. These ESPN bozos talking abouth is legacy are...well, bozos.
    Depends on who the coach is in both circumstances. On balance, all else being equal, I don't know that I'd agree with that statement. You can't go from being as bad as the Bulls are to being as good of a team as you argue the Cavs are by just switching one player, IMHO.
    I'd have to look at the PHX numbers to see his team defense when there. I just don't think the Knickerbockers are designed to win.
    I didn't do what you allege, so this point is moot. I still maintain that Lebron doesn't the pieces in place in CLE for a title run, and it's not Lebron's fault.

    Permission to treat the witness as hostile? :tongue3:
     
  7. ccrobinson

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    Doesn't matter. One bad game shouldn't nullify 3 years of proven playoff performance. Lebron shouldn't be called an October-March player because of Game 5 of the Celtics series.


    What were you criticizing him for then? Want to be critical of his performance in Game 5? That's fine. I thought it was pathetic. I don't know what other conclusion I was supposed to draw from your comments.


    The Bulls are bad? Is 41-41 bad? Or merely average?

    Please tell me why you say that Lebron on the Bulls isn't as good of a team as Lebron on the Cavs. The 2nd best player on the Cavs is Mo Williams. Nobody who watches the NBA regularly thinks that Mo Williams is better than Derrick Rose. You may want to rethink your position on this.


    I already said that. But, you felt the need to say that Lebron wasn't a playoff performer when there's loads of evidence that proves the exact opposite.
     
  8. TomVols

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    Maybe. But it's happening. Now, how much that will affect his FA status/price remains to be seen.

    Just looked up his stats for this year. His second round stats are much worse than his first. FG% 12 pts lower. 3 pt FG% is down by half. 3 TOs a game to almost 5. And looking at his career Reg Season vs playoffs, this is not new just doing a quick test. I'm not saying the perception is accurate. I'm just saying it seems to be out there.
    See above. He played a horrible game 5 and that gave his detractors room to question his playoff mettle, fair or not. He puts up gaudy numbers but doesn't necessarily "help his team win." I contend he hasn't had all the pieces in place and don't think NY or CHI would give him a much better opportunity but we've been down that road.
    Gladly. First, the Bulls aren't terrible. But they are nowhere near the elite of the East. Put them in a 7 game series with CLE, BOS, or ORL, and they lose way more series than they'd win.

    This year, CLE had the best record in the NBA. Chi would've missed the playoffs in the West. Since 2005, the Bulls have had one winning season and gotten no higher than a home seed. Since 2005, CLE has finished no worse than 2nd in their division and has played for a title, one other conference crown. Chi win pct during that time? .500. CLE? Let's just say it's much higher :)

    I won't argue that Rose is probably a better #2 on paper and maybe even on the floor. But then what do you have? I'm sorry...Noah isn't ready for primetime. And then what? Brad Miller? Deng, assuming he gets on the floor if Lebron is around? Heinrich? I don't see CHI having a frontcourt that's an upgrade from CLE. Explain how Brad Miller and Noah are an upgrade from Ilgauskas and Shaq with Varejo to boot. Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying the Cavs are the 80s Celts or the 90s Bulls. Clearly they aren't. But I don't believe anyone in the East is a Lebron away a title, except maybe Boston, and they aren't buying.

    At the end, I think we agree on everything except how good a fit he'd be in CHI. You seem to think that Lebron instantly makes CHI the best in the East. I disagree. I think they'd be much better, but not necessarily better than what he has now.
     
  9. ccrobinson

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    Anybody who says this hasn't been paying attention. Lebron should get criticized for his game 5 performance, but it's completely ridiculous to call him an "October to March" player because of one game.


    New York doesn't. Chicago does.


    I didn't say they were bad. You did. I didn't say they were near the elite. I say they're exactly average.


    Non-sequitur. Chicago isn't in the west.


    There's no maybe here. Rose is better right now than Mo Williams.


    That's fine, but it's the exact opposite position of people who watch and write about basketball much more than I do. I agree with the NBA writers and watchers who say that the best place for Lebron to be to win championships is in Chicago.
     
    #9 ccrobinson, May 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2010
  10. TomVols

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    I don't entirely disagree, yet I think some are looking at his whole body of work. Some are just talking to be talking, to be sure.
    How can you say this (or anyone) about a team that doesn't have a coach?
    Correct. I don't think the Bulls are bad (unless you compare them to the Cavs, which I did). They do have a mediocore record.
    True, but not non-seq entirely. When we're comparing them to a team with the best record of either conference, it's worth pointing out that the team of comparison is 16th best in the league at best, if that.
    As I said, even if I cede that point, that doesn't prove the Bulls are better than the Cavs.
    I haven't seen this much, but what I have seen is people predicting he will land in Chicago. Anyone who argues that CHI is immediately a better fit when the team doesn't even have a coach yet is listening to too much Stuart Scott.

    By the way, ESPN is now reporting that Chi's flavor of the week status is slipping. Now, Miami, Houston, both LA teams, and even the Nets are in the running. Kinda goes to my point. Chi was the sexy pick for a while. ESPN giveth and ESPN taketh away :laugh:

    Obama has now weighed in. Glad he's thinking of weighty matters: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/14/we-are-lebron-obama-wants_n_577063.html
     
  11. ccrobinson

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    I don't have a clue what Stuart Scott is saying. The people that I'm reading know that Chicago doesn't have a coach and they're still saying Chicago is the best place to go. Lack of a coach isn't going to stop Lebron from going to Chicago. Chicago not having a coach is better than Cleveland having Mike Brown, who was completely outcoached by Doc Rivers in the Celtics series.
     
  12. TomVols

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    I happen to disagree with the CW here. Who the Bulls hire makes all the difference in the world. If it didn't matter, why is this story about a Calipari/James package deal making so much hay? Or Phil going back to Chicago? If they felt that the coach didn't matter in Chicago, why fire Vinny? And you'll never hear me disagree about Mike Brown. If he's fired (how do you fire the coach with the best record in the league over the last two seasons) and you bring in Coach K, Cal, or one of another of Lebron's hand-picked coaches, all is likely well. Or do you make a run at Phillip? That said, Mike Brown must be better than Del Negro on some level since his Cavs went 6-3 against the Bulls this year.

    Interesting next few days. Just read an article that says Brown will be out by week's end. Cal would be targeted as would "players coach" Avery Johnson if not hired by the Hawks.
     
  13. ccrobinson

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    I don't think I said the coach doesn't matter. I think what I said was that lack of a coach right now isn't going to stop Lebron from going there. I think they fired Vinny because they either thought, or knew, that Lebron was never going to Chicago with Vinny in place.


    Doug Collins was the predecessor to Phil Jackson and got fired because he was unable to win in the playoffs with Michael Jordan. Mike Brown will get fired because he had Lebron James and was unable to win with him.


    Having better talent makes a coach look good.


    When did Avery Johnson become a players coach?
     
  14. TomVols

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    I'd like to think they had a better reason than that. A player on another team shouldn't factor into your hiring/firing decision, but with the Bulls, all things are possible
    I largely agree, though there was some perception in Cle that Brown isn't a playoff coach. Right or wrong, it is what it is.
    Del Harris wouldn't agree :laugh: I think CLE made the mistake of thinking that Brown would bring some of Popovich's style and success to CLE. Hasn't happened. Nor do I think Popovich is one of the NBA's best.
    This was his perception in DAL until they made the deal to get Kidd, and Kidd well....Kidded another coach. How many has this guy torpedoed now?
     
  15. TomVols

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    Forgot to add....I keep reading articles (sick today) that says NJ is more interested by the minute and if they get a #1 overall, they'll offer the store to get Lebron. Big mistake on both parts. There's no one in my mind worthy in this draft of King James. Evan Turner would make a nice complement, and with some work, Wall could be a good PG for James, but no way does either replace Lebron.

    If I were a huge Cavs fan, I'd be getting very nervous about what Ferry might be thinking
     
  16. ccrobinson

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    It's just me speculating, and it's likely they had a better reason.


    Yeah, he's not good. He was clearly outcoached by Stan Van Gundy last year and by Doc Rivers this year.


    Sorry, Tom, but you make some strange statements about the NBA from time to time. Popovich is one of the best coaches in the league. Steve Nash didn't call him the best a few days ago just to tweak Phil Jackson.


    If the Nets were in their new stadium next year instead of 2 years from now, I think they would be a major player to land Lebron.
     
  17. TomVols

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    First, I mistyped (stupid stomach bug). What I meant to say was that Brown in my mind was not the best of Popovich's assistants who are now scattered in the NBA. I'd take Felton and a couple others. I wonder if Brown's time with Rick Carlisle didn't hurt him some. I loved Rick, but he seemed to lose luster for some reason.

    I don't think there's any question that any list of the NBA's best coaches that wouldn't have Popp in the top three. Anything below that and drug testing needs to occur.

    Second, I think Nash was DEFINITELY tweaking Jackson's nose and enormous ego :tongue3:
     

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