"Closing the book" on Lordship Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    This apparently didn't satisfy JArthur on his thread but this is the definitive response to "Lordship" in salvation. At salvation, we believe in GOD's Lordship. In discipleship that follows salvation, we believe in Christ's Lordship.

    Here's what I believed when I was saved. It sounds much different than the LS "formulary" although I can use some of Calvinism's terminology to describe it.

    When I was saved, I believed that God, the Father, was Lord of all and would be my Lord if I accepted Christ. He is all wisdom and truth. I believed (and still do) that receiving Christ as Savior through repentance was the only way to 1) be reconciled to the Father, 2) to know what my Lord, God, wanted me to do with my life and 3) to receive the power (HS) to carry it out. Notice, though, salvation and regeneration and indwelling of the Spirit come AFTER repentance.

    At the time of my conversion, the gospel did not have to do with Jesus as Lord but God as Lord. Since that day, I have come to learn that "reconciling" with God is called "justification." We are not reconciling with Jesus. Instead, God "gives" us to His Son as "disciples" just as LS appears to demand.

    So the "ordo salutis" is this: God "draws" us to Savior Christ -- we "come" to Him repenting for reconciliation to God -- God "gives" us to Christ as disciples/followers of His "Lordship" for the "sanctification" of our spirit and our flesh. Do you see how these very Calvinist ideas are incorporated correctly into the sotierological model?

    Often at the point of discipleship, though, the "sheep" go astray. :tear: We are not willing to nor are we able of ourselves to "foresake all" and follow Him. A disciple is a follower and a learner (spiritually growing, Eph 4:14-16) who progressively puts aside his life for Christ's. This is the "life" that JM's LS demands for salvation but which is really the life of "sanctification."

    We used to say of this LS model that it makes Jesus our Example but not our Savior. Knowing that Christ is Savior does NOT "by itself" equate to "faith" ("faith that is alone is dead," right? Jas 2:12). If there is no "act of confirmation" (like "confess with thy mouth"), then your salvation is merely "water cooler" talk! Nice tidbits of information to make others think you are a "spiritual giant" when you are, possibly, a really a "spiritual midget." You don't really have the Lordship of Christ if you don't first have the Lordship of God.



    skypair[/QUOTE]
     
    #1 skypair, Jul 31, 2008
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  2. Reformer

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    I have never understood this debate, although I admit I have read very little about and frankly I haven't encountered anyone who wanted to make a big fuss either way.

    The reason I have never studied it is mainly because Phil 2:11 says "...Jesus IS Lord" I mean that is who he IS, was, and always will be Lord over the saved..Yes, Lord over the unregenerate ... well yeah.. although they wouldn't admit it. HE IS LORD OVER ALL RIGHT?? then why the debate?

    As I stated I know very little about the actual debate, what I do know is that when I hear "I got saved X years ago but didn't make Jesus my Lord until X years ago" I just stand there thinking "Do you really make Him anything, WHO ARE YOU WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE"

    If I am off the topic of the actual debate forgive me I am unlearned in this area
     
  3. skypair

    skypair
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    Reformer, Welcome to BB. :wavey:

    Christ is Lord over a spiritual kingdom called the "kingdom of heaven." It is a SPIRITUAL kingdom of believers and unbelievers who claim to know Him.

    There is another "kingdom" that is really in control on earth, though. Satan's is a kingdom having its own "children" and "disciples." He is their "lord." They follow his "wisdom" -- even his "antichrist" -- by default! That is, they have not accepted God as Lord though they may seem to follow God (Pharisees) or Christ (RCC). Do you see this?

    What that testimony really means is that "I was 'reconciled to God' X years ago but didn't 'become a disciple' until X years ago." Can that happen? SURE! You reconcile your life with God but you don't know enough to make your Savior you Lord until you realize that your life "here and now" ("abundant life") depends of it!

    skypair
     
    #3 skypair, Jul 31, 2008
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  4. ReformedBaptist

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    Welcome fellow Reformer! :applause:
     
  5. EdSutton

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    Good post.

    And welcome to the Baptist Board.

    Hope you brought along your 'hard-hat', :tonofbricks:

    and 'asbestos suit'.

    It do get intense in here, every now and again.

    Ed
     
  6. Reformer

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    Thanks for the reply some of it was helpful and some of it just raised more questions. I might do a little search and try to acquire a little more knowledge before I go to asking questions that have already been addressed, anyway thanks

    And ReformedBaptist I am glad to be here and look forward to getting some of your input in the future

    EdSutton thanks for the compliment and I already have a hard hat but I will have to get an Asbestos Suit :laugh: thanks for the warning
     
  7. skypair

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    It does raise questions, doesn't it. :confused: I think most Reformers don't know where to begin to answer this "free will" view of salvation mainly because instead of theone salvation of their "spiritual man," free will has in view one salvation of the soul and one salvation of the spirit of man.

    It's an exact reversal of the "fall." When Adam fell (or when you and I fell, Ezek 18:20), his soul "died" immediately, his spirit died progressively, and his body was condemned to die eventually. Though his soul/conscience became innured to God's "good" wisdom on account of sin, his spirit/mind/emotions/will could still find God or hide from Him as Adam chose.

    Do you see the "3 phase" or "3 stage" restoration God had to accomplish in salvation? The soul is reconciled/restored/justified* immediately and eternally the moment we believe. We can never be lost again -- He preserves us.

    Then the spirit is being sanctified/discipled/taught by the Holy Spirit "grows" spiritually progressively (Eph 4:14-16) -- over our lifetimes. And there is good reason to believe that if we are not cooperating with this, we may a) be "chastised" or b) commit instead a "sin unto death" wherein God calls us home (1Cor 5:5).

    Finally, we will be glorified bodily. There is an earthly, "terrestrial," phase (John 17:22, 1Cor 15:40-41) where we are glorified by the outworking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly, "celestial," phase wherein Christ gives us our new, eternal, glorious bodies in heaven (1Cor 15:51-52).

    The important thing I would have you note, however, is that Calvinism assumes the passive salvation/justification of the soul by God through "election" and through the gift of "faith" that stands truly "alone" -- no repentance, commitment, obedience, etc. involved in saving the soul eternally. Justification of the soul has either been "given" to you from "before the foundation of the world" at absolutely no cost to you OR you are non-elect/reprobate.

    Calvinism's "entering argument" in salvation is really the discipleship/sanctification phase I described -- the redemption of the spirit of man of which Jesus remarked, "You [Pharisees] are really just putting new cloth on an old garment ... new wine in an old skin." Jesus IS Lord of our spiritual walk but God is Lord of our soul. Even Calvinism believes that God "gives" us to His Son for sanctification after we are "drawn" and we "come." Only problem with Calvinism in that construct is that they never really "come" to salvation/justification of their own free will and by their own repentance, commitment, obedience, etc. --- "It is all of God" they will say. Well, it ain't. Jesus knocks but we must open, Rev 3:20!


    *I'm using several appropriate terms so that you can consider them in your study.

    Anyway, I hope this helps you in your study, Reformer. :thumbs:

    skypair
     

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