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Col.2{16}

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Chowmah, Jan 12, 2011.

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  1. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Isa.30
    [15] For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

    Like i said, kinda knew that goin in. Do you know who the "Holy One" is?
     
    #61 Chowmah, Jan 20, 2011
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You are completely ignorant of the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. It means "good news" and it is the good news that Jesus Christ satisfied every jot and every tittle of the demands of God's law in my place. Entrance into Heaven is obtained by Christ's works not mine, his obedience to the law not mine. Rewards and position IN heaven is "according to" the life I lived in the Spirit in conformity to His commandments. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and not the difference between the foundation that gets one into heaven versus the house of works built upon that foundation that gets "reward" in heaven:

    11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    What applies to missionaries who are faithful to their calling applies to every child of God who is faithful to their calling. The foundation saves, the house obtains rewards. The house of works may completely judged worthless but the man himself who has this foundation is still "saved."

    Don't fit your soteriology does it!
     
    #62 Dr. Walter, Jan 20, 2011
  3. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Like i said only a few will listen to the scripture

    LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    only a little flock will enter the kingdom

    MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

    few there be that find it

    MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

    In footnotes of the KJB, iniquity equals lawlessness. You can find this in 2 THES. 2 verse 7. And the many have come in the name of JESUS saying we need not keep GODS 10 commandments. Practice to break one ya break them all according to scripture

    LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

    Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.

    ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.

    Well, here we are. The BOTTOM LINE. The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that only a few will be saved to the kingdom.

    LEV.24 [8] EVERY SABBATH he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.

    Is this the everlasting covenant that they broke?
     
    #63 Chowmah, Jan 20, 2011
  4. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Didnt even know i had a soteriology. Got a dictionary i can borrow
     
    #64 Chowmah, Jan 20, 2011
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    doctrine of salvation
     
    #65 Dr. Walter, Jan 20, 2011
  6. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Gettin back to Col.2

    NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

    Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of.

    EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

    The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16].

    LEVITICUS 23 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

    In all the feast days (holy days) meat and drink offerings were written into the laws of commandments contained in the ordinances. The above scripture points out the holy day of passover when Jesus was crucified.

    HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    Once again, the 1st covenant had ordinances which stood only in meat and drinks

    EPH.2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    COL. 2 [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    ISAIAH 24 [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, CHANGED THE ORDINANCE, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

    But in this “Day of the Lord” scripture it seems the many will go on believing what they’ve been taught by their sunday mornin pulpiteers. They will continue to believe the commandments mentioned in Eph.2 are the 10 commandments and not the law of commandments contained in the ordinances
     
    #66 Chowmah, Jan 22, 2011
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    What you and all other legalists fail to understand is that the ten commandments form the moral basis for all other aspects of the Old Covenant. The Ten commandments forms the moral basis for the ceremonial and civil law. The Ten commandments are as much a part of the Old Covenant as the civil and ceremonial laws.

    No human being has ever been justified or sanctified by the moral law of God any more than by the ceremonial or civil law of God. In doing away with the Old Covenant, the entire law administration (moral, ceremonial, civil) is abolished.

    Salvation never was and never will be by the law. Even under the public administration of the law during the days of Moses to Christ there was no justification, no sanctification, no grace administered by law. It was merely formal instruction in regard to the nature of sin in order to lead us away from the law to faith in Christ for justification, sanctification and salvation in whole.

    The Mosaic Covenant was merely an EXTERNAL PUBLIC administration of the Law in the temple ministry and the ushering in of the New Covenant was merely an EXTERNAL PUBLIC administration of grace in the congregational ministry. These EXTERNAL PUBLIC administrations does not mean that both law and grace preceded the public administrations.

    The law has served the same function in regard to the INDIVIDUAL since the garden of Eden and will continue to serve the same function - to reveal the knowledge of sin.

    Grace has served the same function in regard to the INDIVIDUAL since the garden of Eden and will continue to serve the same function - to reveal salvation through faith in God's promised Christ provision.
     
    #67 Dr. Walter, Jan 22, 2011
  8. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Question:

    Not to: [​IMG]

    But, I have heard this preached thusly...

    Heb 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

    The reason the Sacrifices had to be repeated and could not Completely Cleanse was because the blood was not perfect and could only cover the broken law until it decomposed.

    But, Christ, being perfect shed His own perfect blood which can never decompose and therefore covers our sin eternally.

    In this line of thinking the reason for the Sacrifice was the shed Blood.

    Heb 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    Heb 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    I have intentionally *not* highlighted or embellished any "key" parts of the above Scriptures...

    As regards to convincing Chowmah I think there is a saying?

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
    #68 SpiritualMadMan, Jan 22, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    I have never accepted the "chemistry" of the blood theory. In the type, not any kind of animal could be sacrificed but only a particular animal that among other characteristics was without "blemish." The shedding of the blood of that animial represented the life without blemish - or a righteous life.

    The reason animals could never literally remove sin is because literal animals have no literal sinless life but only a TYPICAL sinless life. The shedding of Christ's blood was not a drop or two but UNTO DEATH. It was the giving of a SINLESS LIFE in death in the place of SINFUL LIVES. It was an imputation of sinlessness to the "ungodly" (Rom. 4:5).

    The langauge of songs like "washed in blood" refer to the Biblical idea of the conscience of the sinner being cleansed by the KNOWLEDGE of the truth of the gospel. That is, when a person understands and accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ, he understands that the sinless life of Christ has been imputed to his account and he stands sinless before God "in Christ" by faith and that his sins have been paid in full by Christ. This KNOWLEGE removes guilt from the conscience of the beleiver (Heb. 9:14). There is no LITERAL BLOOD that enters into your LITERAL CONSCIENCE and gives you a LITERAL washing. This is all metaphorical language that conveys the truth of the gospel to the mind and conscience of the sinner that removes the sin problem, and thus the guilt problem in the conscience of the believer.

    Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    The guilty conscience will always response to condemnation of sin by doing works in order to pacify guilt. Such doing works are "dead" because nothing ths sinner does is sinless and so further aggrevates his condemned condition. However, when the knowledge of the gospel is received by faith, the Holy Spirit effectually applies the truth to the conscience that sins have been forgiven by the death of a sinless Christ in the sinners place and they have been satisfied for ever. This is what it means to have our conscience washed by the blood of Christ. This brings PEACE to the conscience that quenches all guilt before God.
     
    #69 Dr. Walter, Jan 22, 2011
  10. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Could either of you explain the scriptures below? When i ask you to explain them i dont mean to go on some tirade about legalism or claiming im beating a dead horse. Just explain them to me. Tell me why you think they really do not say what they say.

    MATTHEW 15 [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

    Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

    JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be ONE FOLD, and ONE SHEPHERD.

    Jesus also said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles which hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where?

    ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    Jesus BRINGS THEM to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” are the gentiles. As plain as the nose on my face, these “others” are keeping Gods sabbath day. They have taken hold of His covenant. No way around it. So, have “many” come in the name of Jesus and decieved many as the bible said would happen? I reckon so. You must be keeping the sabbath in order to be saved to the kingdom. No doubt about it.

    ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the Lord; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

    Jesus "brings" us to Jerusalem, Zion, His holy mountain.

    PSALM 132 [12] If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.[13] For THE LORD HATH CHOSEN ZION; he hath desired it for his habitation. [14] THIS IS MY REST FOR EVER: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

    Once again found in the scriptures. Who are the children that will joining Jesus in His rest? They who keep the covenant {ten commandments} and the testimony {of Jesus}

    Could you explain.
     
    #70 Chowmah, Jan 28, 2011
  11. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Israel was God's elect nation and professed people of God. The messiah was promised to come through them and to them. Jesus came to fulfil that promise and he did and that is what he meant in Matthew 15:24. However, Matthew 15:24 does not mean that Christ is restricted to Israel after fulfilling this promise but rather he was sent to fulfill that promise first and foremost so that prophecy would be true. However, He quoted prophecies that predicted He would be preached unto the gentiles also but that came later and he did preach to the gentiles (John 4, 12) and commissioned that His congregation should go and preach unto the Gentiles (Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8) which they did (Acts 10; 11; 13-28). His congregations practiced his order - to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.



     
    #71 Dr. Walter, Jan 28, 2011
  12. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    John 10 - Isaiah 56 - Zech 8 - Psalm 132

    Please explain why those scriptures dont say what they are saying
     
    #72 Chowmah, Jan 29, 2011
  13. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    They do say what they are saying but they are not saying what you want them to say. Scriptures must be interpreted by scriptures in keeping with the immediate and overall context. I did that in my previous post.
     
    #73 Dr. Walter, Jan 29, 2011
  14. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    They truly do say what im saying they say. There all speaking of the coming of Christ to set up His kingdom. What do you say they say?
     
    #74 Chowmah, Jan 30, 2011
  15. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    So you think Matthew 15:24 is about the kingdom of God? I don't read a single word about the kingdom in that text! I believe what it actually says. He was sent to the "lost house of Israel". His first and primary mission was to fulfill prophecies of the good news of Israel's Messiah. When Israel rejected Him as their Messiah he turned to the Gentiles. However, if you continue to read the context, He did minister to this Gentile. Nothing about the Kingdom!

    So you think John 10:4 is about setting up His kingdom? He is talking about His "sheep" among the Jews and later among the Gentiles. I agree that he did sit up a new visible administration of His kingdom on earth - The New Tesament congregation as the house of God with a new qualified ministry and ordinances and mission to the Gentiles.

    So you think Isaiah 56 is about setting up a future kingdom? He has been talking about the gospel of the Messiah (Isa. 53) and salvation by faith in the coming Christ. Paul says he preached that gospel right then in his day as the means of salvation (Rom. 10:16; Acts 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2). The true kingdom of God (rule of God in hearts of men) was every bit existent in the day of Isaiah as in the day of Paul - same kingdom - same gospel. He is talking about it under the current VISIBLE KINGDOM ADMINISTRATION of that day (the temple, its ministry, ordinances and sabbath).

    I agree that Zechariah 8-12 refers to the future salvation of NATIONAL ISRAEL at Armageddon when Christ comes and delivers and saves NATIONAL Israel (Rom. 10:25-28).

    Psalm 132 is merely speaking of earthly Jerusalem as a type of heavenly Jerusalem or the true Jerusalem which is above. That is where he RESTS presently and will REST eternally (Rev. 21:1-2).
     
    #75 Dr. Walter, Jan 30, 2011
  16. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Why would you bring up Matt.15? Why did you do that? You know i was talking about

    John 10 - Isaiah 56 - Zech 8 - Psalm 132

    Please explain why those scriptures dont say what they are saying

    Do you see Matt. 15 there? So why do you try to decieve?
     
    #76 Chowmah, Jan 30, 2011
  17. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    #77 Chowmah, Jan 30, 2011
  18. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    ISAIAH 56 [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    As clear as the nose on my face. Hes bringing us to His Holy Mountain

    JOEL 3 [13] Put ye in the sickle, FOR THE HARVEST IS RIPE: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. [14] Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. [15] The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. [16] The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. [17] So SHALL YE KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD DWELLING IN ZION, MY HOLY MOUNTAIN: THEN SHALL JERUSALEM BE HOLY, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
     
    #78 Chowmah, Jan 30, 2011
  19. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #79 Dr. Walter, Jan 30, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Matthew 15 is included in your post. It is the post that I quoted from you in my post on 1/28/11 - just take a look and see!
     
    #80 Dr. Walter, Jan 30, 2011
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