College conference expansion

Discussion in 'Sports' started by TomVols, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Big Ten, SEC, Pac Ten, and Big 12 have all been talking about or targets of expansion and raiding. Texas has been invited to join everything except the NL West, the Leage of Women Voters, and the English Premier League. At the rate we're going, we could have a few super conferences and a conference or two out there would be non existent or markedly different.

    What say you all? Reaction?
     
  2. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not a diehard college football fan, so it's hard for me to care about this. The local sports radio guys aren't thrilled about what's going on, but I think that has more to do with their concern for how it affects UT football than their concern for the health of college football.
     
  3. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it's a tad bigger than just college football. I think the spector of mega-expansion in basketball also plays into this.

    And how it affects UT? How does Nebraska going to the Big Ten and Colorado going to the Pac 10 affect UT exactly?
     
  4. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really? It seems that whenever expansion is discussed, it's all about football and nothing else. You might be right, I just haven't seen basketball mentioned in regards to expansion.


    I don't really know, but the idea seems to be that if the Big 10 and Pac 10 expand, the SEC needs to follow suit. I haven't heard an explanation about why the SEC needs to expand. They just need to. For some unknown reason.
     
  5. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Listened to local morning sports radio and was like a firefly who backed into a fan when Paul Kuharsky joined the show today. In general, I think a lot of people don't like him because he tends to be "negative", whatever that means, but I think he's the voice of reason and reality around here. He makes the rather bland morning show, which is only marginally better than those idiots named Mike, at least 10 times better.

    My contention has been that, if you listen to sports radio around here, you'd think the sky was falling over conferences realigning. And, actually, as I'll show you later, the sky really is falling to some (most). Kuharsky sort of backed up that contention by talking about how this isn't as big of a deal as it's being made out to be. He tried to provide perspective, but when you have people calling in who think the SEC should be adding Florida State, Miami or, insanely, TCU, to the conference, then you know that there isn't much perspective to be found around here.

    At any rate, the first couple of schools have taken the plunge with Colorado going to the Pac10 (11?) and Nebraska leaving the Big 12 for the greener pastures of the Big 10. Now that these 2 have changed, we have (at least for a short time) a Big 10 conference with 12 schools in it and a Big 12 conference with 10 schools in it.

    Now that the Big 10 has 12 schools, do they stop with 12? Kansas has been the school that virtually everybody thinks is going to take it in the shorts hard over conference expansion. What's to stop the Big 10 from adding them? Why wouldn't they? Imagine this. Notre Dame takes the plunge into joining a conference, then the Big 10 adds Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State. That's not just a 16 team super conference to rival the Big East. That's an 800 lb Gorilla Conference.

    Added benefit: Illini fans get to boo Bill Self at least once a year.
     
  6. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,053
    Likes Received:
    36
    I'm surprised about the collapse of the Big 12, now Big 10 with CU going to the PAC 10 (11?) and Nebraska going to the Big 10 (12?). I thought that they were one of the stronger conferences.

    I would hope that the Big 12 stays together. I think they have enough strong universities in the major sports and that they could simply add two or more additional universities. Nebraska is one thing, but really, how hard is it to replace CU?

    TCU, Houston, Air Force, Utah and BYU would be worthy additions. Plus, Air Force could help keep the Colorado TV market and Utah or BYU would let the Big 12 expand in Utah.

    The one conference that I think is due for the break up and/or additional consolidation is the Big LEast, with separate members for football and basketball. They only have eight football teams in the conference, with Cinci being the bear (pun intended). They really need to expand to stay relevant.

    Plus, Boise State is now leaving the WAC for the MWC (yawn).
     
  7. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    CCRob, let me address your posts and by implication some others.

    CW seems to be that the Big Ten will not stop at just one. The Pac 10 is also likely to become the Pac 16. So that means that anywhere from 28-32 teams are going to be in two conferences, creating the so-called first of the super conferences. Why wouldn't the SEC want that designation?

    And more to the point, why wouldn't the SEC be sought, after they just doled out checks totaling a quarter of a billion dollars at its conference meetings a couple weeks ago.

    As for the sky falling, depending on who you ask, we're losing the following:
    1. Traditional rivalries. Why should new conference alignments care about storied rivalries like Texas/Okla, Bama/Tenn, etc.?
    2. A shot at a playoff. Every step towards a super conference is one more away from a playoff. Some argue the other direction, but consider this: Bama is the best of the 16 best teams in the South. Texas is the best of the 16 best teams in the West/Southwest. Who could argue that those two did what they had to do to compete for a title? Well, I might but that's another story
    3. Lower division sports. Say bye bye to some sports. How can the women's softball team and Texas A&M afford to travel to Pullman, WA for three nights?
    4. a 2 digit team field in the NCAA tourney. Go ahead an cry wolf, but the Super conferences will argue that 19 wins in their league is better than 25 in another, and those teams should be given the honor of the dance (translation: we have more teams to support, we need the revenue...give us a 128 team field)
    That's why some think the sky is falling.

    Why would the SEC expand? Simple. If the Big Ten is a super, the Pac 16 will be, the SEC would almost have to follow suit to maintain $$$ relevance when it comes to renegotiating TV contracts which drive the bus right now.

    In closing on the SEC, some have talked of the SEC changing for some time. Really, what has SC and ARk brought to the table? ARK has been unhappy, with some fans wanting to go back to a southwestern-based conference. However, it would be hard to get these schools to leave since their bank accounts are larger thanks to the SEC.

    Rumored candidates for the SEC: Ga Tech (a former member), Fl State, Clemson, Va Tech, Miami, the Texas schools, Southern Miss (not likely as much now), Louisville, Cincinnati, NC, NC State. I can see a 16 team expansion but some have wondered about a three division conf with 5 each or four divisions of four each. Best two div champs meet to decide the football champion.

    And just for kicks: I know many donors and a large number of fans of Kentucky who would love to leave the SEC. You heard me right. They believe they're bigger than the conference. They long for the ACC where they can be more competitive in other sports besides basketball. Stranger things could happen.

    Utah, BYU, TCU and Houston might make for an interesting addition, but no way do they replace Texas, Okla, Okla St, and Colorado for starters.

    As for the Big East, where do these schools go? If the SEC raids the ACC, maybe Louisville, Rutgers (providing they don't go to the Big ten), Pitt (providing they don't go to the Big Ten), Cincinnati (providing they don't go elsewhere), Notre Dame (a Super Conference is all that will get them somewhere and I still don't see that as likely) all become ACC candidates.

    I wonder if we won't see a couple of minor conferences fold.
    -------------------------
    According to the latest on ESPN: it's official - Nebraska goes to the Big Ten July 1, 2011. Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St will jump to the Pac 10 by middle of next week. So they need one more for the Pac 16 to be complete. Texas A&M will be that one if they do not consider application to SEC. Utah has been mentioned as a possible 16th Pac 16 member. Kansas and Iowa State are asking around. Baylor is considering the MWC. That sound you hear is dominoes falling. And they're falling fast.
     
  8. jeben

    jeben
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2007
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's only about the money !
     
  9. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,053
    Likes Received:
    36
    If Texas, A&M, OU and OSU leave the Big 12, then they are in very real trouble and may not survive.

    Regarding the ACC, I do hope they stay together. As a group of universities, they are distinctly different (for the most part) than the large state universities that comprise the SEC. Four of twelve ACC universities are private - Miami, Wake, Duke and BC - 33% - the highest percentage of all conferences. In addition, many the others are top notch state universities -- VTech, UVA, UM, Clemson, GaTch, UNC, etc. I think that Rutgers, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt and even Navy make a good fit. Would also love to have UK should they decide to leave the SEC.

    Regarding the SEC, picking up A&M would be a huge deal -- allowing the SEC to expand into Texas. If they don't raid the ACC, I wonder who else they would pick up?
     
  10. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, a lot to go after here.

    First, the ACC needs to meet the Ivy league if they're bragging about private schools :) And private doesn't mean better. But your number is incorrect. CUSA has an equally high percentage of private schools (tulsa, Rice, SMU, Tulane and I think Houston hasn't been public all that long). Second, I would question the contention that Clemson, UNC, and UM are academic monsters. Third, yes the SEC has public schools, but a good number have academic notches on their belt. UT's Businesss school is a top 15 b-school and their engineering is up there as well. Fla has its high water marks. UGa is considered to be one of the top two or three public schools in America. Ole Miss has a storied academic tradition and a first rate law school. Auburn is well noted. And being a Tennessee guy I refuse to give any props to Bama :)

    Fourth, Half the schools on your Big East wish list are either commuter schools or a step above. I don't see the ACC salivating over them. That said, the ACC clearly would lose to the SEC and would have to take what they can get. Navy isn't going anywhere - the military academies have an allergy to conferences in this day and time. But you never know. Fifth, UK isn't going anywhere. They're not that stupid. You can't leave the dollars and prestige of the SEC to go down a notch.

    Sixth, A&M going to the SEC would be a huge deal - for the Aggies. The SEC gains little more than a toehold into Texas with the whole state going Pac 10. As for who the SEC would go after, four teams from the ACC have always been targets and interested: Miami, Fl St, Clemson and Ga Tech. In a four division four team scenario, that makes for an interesting division don't you think? In the west (assuming the pac 16 takes shape) A&M might get targeted (if they don't become the 16th team), So Miss, and some say TCU is a long shot. I believe they're VERY long, though not out of the question. Baylor might make a good choice in the West. They'd be targeted for the Big 12 if it tried to survive with the likes of Houston, Utah (if they don't go Pac 16), etc.

    Here's the deal: after mid next week, when Texas, TX Tech, A&M, Okla, and Okla St will make their moves. The next move decides the game. Will the Big 12 proactively go afte a wish list of schools (which could include Arkanasas, Utah (see above), BYU (see above) TCU (See above - boy how bad would Boise feel now?) OR, would Iowa St, Baylor, and the Kansas schools and Mizzou start looking for parachutes? Whoever makes the first move will decide it all. The Big Ten has another move to make. Do they settle for 16 if the Pac and SEC go for 16? Mizzou and Kansas are still out there, but no one thinks Kansas or K-State is headed anywhere major. Don't me surprised to see the SEC go for Mizzouri. You heard it hear first. They border three SEC states right now.

    Think about this: It is entirely feasible...ENTIRELY....that by the end of the Summer, we will have ending dates for the ACC and Big 12 at worst, or Big 12 and Big East and / or CUSA and /or MWC at least. AT LEAST.
    It is entirely possible that Rice, Houston, and TCU become part of a Big Eight. (talk about going back in time and stature).

    Almost 20 years go Bob Kesling, now the Voice of the Vols, predicted a day when Super Conferences would reign after the SEC expanded to 12 teams. Everyone laughed. Today, the only people laughing are the ones whose coffers just got bigger.
     
    #10 TomVols, Jun 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2010
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    This was all driven initially by the Big Ten wanting a 12th team so they could have divisions and a CCG.

    with 11 teams they were too big for round robin and not large enough for divisions.
    But then they start talking expansion and then the Pac 10 gets involved and then the MWC and now everyone is in a panic.

    I think the panic worked in the favor of the Big Ten because they got Nebraska as they wanted and now they just may quit at 12.
    The Pac 10 may just quit at 12 after inviting one more team such as Colorado St or Air Force to keep the tradition of in state rivalries together.

    In that case, the Big 12 could simply add a couple of former SWC members such as Houston and SMU or maybe even Memphis.
    Move the OK schools to the north division, and you are back to basically the old Big Six division.
    IN the south you basically have the old SWC again minus a few teams.

    THis would be a ripple felt through all of the conferences but it would not be a tsunami like what some are expecting.
     
  12. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would argue it's been under the surface long before the Big Ten was courting a 12th. It's been talked about ever since the SEC went to 12 and split into divisions back in 1990 (Starting with 1992 season).
    If the Pac 10 goes to 16, and if the SEC goes to 15-16, I don't know if the Big Ten will stand pat at 12. They may have their hand forced. Maybe not.
    They can't. With the spector of the SEC and or Big Ten going after Texas, Okla and Okla St, the Pac 10 is going to go to at least 14 and more than likely 16, and more than likely by the time we shoot fireworks on our nation's birthday.
    I don't think Houston was ever in the SWC were they? And Memphis is interested in two conferences only: the SEC (not much of a chance there) and the Big East (much more likely, especially if the ACC loses some to the SEC and the Big East in turn is raided by the ACC yet again).

    I think we've come too far to turn back now, but stranger things have happened.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    An interesting column with comments by Frank Broyles about the current changes in the Big 12 and Arkansas' move to the SEC 20 years ago:

    www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/061110dnsposherrington.11dd999.html

    The most important comment for us Raorback fans:

    "But what if Arkansas had remained in the SWC and become part of the Big 12?

    "I was told by people in the Big 12 after the fact that we would not have been included," he said. "Baylor and Texas Tech had political power. We didn't. The Big 8 was only going to take four teams from the SWC.

    "I was told there was no way they'd have taken us."

    The SEC proved to be a pretty nice consolation prize for Arkansas, which joined along with South Carolina in 1992. The league is made up of mostly neighbors and like-minded institutions.

    Translation: They're all football crazy."
     
  14. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Latest update....

    Kansas, K-State and some others are being courted by the MWC, ESPN says. One report says Kansas is interested in the SEC but the feeling is NOT mutual.

    Texas and Oklahoma are being courted by the Pac 10 and SEC. The SEC will consider A&M if they don't go to the Pac. The Pac Ten is rumored to be working up a plan to ask for more than one automatic bid to the NCAA tourney and the BCS if they go to 16 teams. Rumor also will be that any conf with that number or slightly less will do the same. Yikes.

    Here's the surprising thing....an SEC AD has told ESPN that Fla St, Miami, Clemson and Ga Tech are NOT being considered. Va Tech...maybe.
     
  15. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most of this is power moves. Good reading on this in my book if I recall correctly from seeing some of it and some from reading about it when I was a kid, is look at the Southern Conference and who was a member at the start and all the schools who have been members from time to time. It is good reading for folks who enjoy the history of sports conferences.

    Look at FSU and Miami when they joined a conference, they didn't want to play the SEC schedule so they went into the ACC. I believe most of the schools that are moving will pick the conference that is best for their record.
     
  16. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,053
    Likes Received:
    36


    You are correct about the Ivy. In the realm of Division I universities, the ACC has four private universities - which is 33%. CUSA has three private universities - which is 25%. Thus, I guess I was correct.

    Regarding the academics of the universities, seven of the ACC are ranked in the recent Top 50 universities by US News & World Report -- including University of Miami and University of North Carolina. All but one are listed in the top 100 (FSU - which is ranked 102). In comparison, the SEC has only two in the top 50 -- one being of course Vandy - the SEC's only private university - and the other being the University of Florida.

    The point was that - for the most part - the ACC universities are different than the SEC universities. They are smaller in number of students and most are either private or specialized public unversities like GT, Clemson, VT - the only one perhaps fitting an SEC type school would be FSU.

    In any event, I do hope that the ACC finds a way to stay together and certain schools stay away from the allure of the SEC. Again, I do think that both 'Cuse and Rutgers would be good matches for the ACC.
     
  17. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    They have four out of 12 (Rice, Tulane, Tulsa, SMU) which is equal to the ACC's four out of 12.

    We can go back and forth on the USNWR rankings. As a former University administrator, I could go on and on. It depends on what ranking we're using and why. I do know that the perception is that the ACC is a superior academic conference. Often, the data doesn't hold that, but that's another discussion. Like you I don't want to see the ACC decimated, though some believe it to be fitting. I disagree. I can't blame the Big East schools for wanting in the ACC as it was a tad of a step up.

    I do have to take this under consideration:
    1. Most ACC are private? 4 out of 12 is most?
    2. Size? The SEC has some institutions that are larger. So? Take an anomoly out or two and the figures would be somewhat comparable.
    3. Specialized public schools? How is Clemson and Va Tech specialized? I know Ga Tech is "known' as an engineering school, but that's a rather specious argument.

    I appreciate your love for the ACC. I don't have a major problem with it and hope it stays together. We'll see.
     
  18. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,053
    Likes Received:
    36
    Thanks --- so do I. I think we need two southern conferences.

    Tulsa's private? And Presbyterian to boot! I stand corrected on that. So we'll agree that the ACC is tied with the most?

    Of course, I am an ACC fan (and grad) so I do come with this POV and prejudice. But the academics are more than perception - the data and rankings bear this out. GT is more than "known" as an engineering school - it's one of the top 10 in the country. Plus, VT, UNC and Clemson all have engineering programs. In addition, UNC and UVA are right up there academically.

    Bottom line, just stating that the SEC and ACC - for the most part - are comprised of different universities. Plus, I do think size makes a difference - only three ACC universities have more than 20k students.

    Let's see what happens...
     
  19. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had a lengthy refutation about your enrollment numbers in the ACC (more bigger schools than you give credit) and how in one metric Clemson isn't even in the top five schools in its state; how the fact that a school has an engineering dept (and a good one) doesn't automatically make it the Harvard of the south. But then IE did something wierd. I thought the post got posted. No matter....we'll let it die. You and I can join hands and hope the ACC hangs on.

    Incidentally, at dinner a couple nights ago I floated the idea to a friend that I wondered if the BIg 12 would tell Texas they could do their own deal, be an independent in a conference and have the best of both worlds. "Never happen" my buddy said. Well, read the papers today and we're seeing just that.

    And what if we see MORE independents? Could happen.
     
  20. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    The latest: Texas, Texas A&M, and Oklahoma will stay in the Big 12. Texas will be allowed to have their "Longhorn Network" and yet be part of the Big 12. All according to ESPN.
     

Share This Page

Loading...