Colossian 2:16-17 confirms the Sabbath Christian!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 6, 2004.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    What is 'not near what the Bible teaches' if I use exactly Paul's own words in this Passage and use HIS concepts as in the context? Paul does not reprimand the Church over her Sabbath-belief and -practice - he encourages her in her courages and joyful practice of Sabbath-keeeping IN THE FACE OF THE WORLD outside. His sole reason for doing so is the victory of Jesus Christ through resurrection from the dead, verses 12 to 15.
    Gerhard
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Originally posted by Trotter:

    With the coming of Christ, the OT law was fulfilled. Thus, we are no longer under the Law, but grace.

    In Christ,
    Trotter

    Gerhard's reply:
    Dear Trotter,
    How much I agree with you!
    Now we have reason to celebrate the Sabbath of which Jesus has become the LORD through resurrection from the dead - having "fulfilled" it to the full, in having given it essence and meaning, first, "in Him", because HE, is the "Beginning and the End of the creation of God". In Jesus Christ the Sabbath has indeed been "made for man". So let's feast and 'eat and drink' of Christ the Victor, and feast His Sabbath Day, weekly on the Seventh Day, and monthly for reason of the Lord's Supper, "having entered into HIS own rest as God from His".
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    ..."having entered into HIS rest as God from His" ... that is, through Christ!
    Gerhard
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    ... that is: Be His Church, "the Body belongs to Christ" - of which the Sabbath is but the shadow - gladly! No Christ, no Church; no Church, no Sabbath Day; no Sabbath Day - not even a shadow of the Body that is Christs!
    Come on, we must re-think Colossians 2:16-17!
    Gerhard
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    He argues that we are to "let no man condemn" or "judge" you regarding food or drink or a Sabbath day - "shaddow sabbaths" that point to the work of Christ as the Messiah. Shaddows of "what is to come" but the substance belongs to Christ.

    Lev 23 lists the annual shaddow sabbaths that were given as part of sacrificial system - animal sacrifices and the annual feasts they were sacrificed at - did point to the coming of Christ.

    The spring feasts pointed to the first coming of Christ.

    And the fall feasts pointed to the second coming.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Dear Bob,
    All 'feasts' of the OT point to Christ, including the fall festivals. They pointed to Jesus as He would become a man. The Sabbath too! They all point to Him as God's JUDGEMENT and ATONEMENT from which His second coming derives every bit of meaning. In that way all OT feasts point to Christ's return. And each and every of these 'feasts' were in reality fulfilled in time "in Sabbath's-time" when Jesus rose from the dead "in Sabbath's-time". The continuation in the Apostolic Church of Sabbath observance stemmed from this fact, and from nothing else, for the Church NEVER assembled in worship but by the power of His resurrection, and NEVER assembled in worship but on the Sabbath Day.
    So the 'technical' facts of ceremonial 'feasts' etc. per se are rather empty knowledge. To discover Christ in them - there' life!
    Gerhard
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Oh yes, I forgot to say, and that is whence Colossians 2:16-17 must be seen as getting its significance from.
    Gerhard
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Gerhard,

    It is fairly clear that the OT Annual feast were given at Sinai and not before. This is after the fall and each of the feasts included animal sacrifices. Clearly they were introduced in a manner containing the sacrifices that pre-shadowed Christ.

    But in Gen 2 we find Christ the Creator's 7th day "holy day" made for mankind, sanctified and given before sin or salvation. God the Son gives it as a "memorial" of His creative act.

    Even after the fall in Exodus 20:8-11 it continues to apply as a memorial pointing back to the creator's act in creating this world and mankind in a literal 7 day sequence. The reason this memorial is bound to a 7 day sequence is stated explicitly in the Creator's law.

    No other Sabbath listed in Lev 23 is bound to the 7 day sequence of creation week.

    Your point that the Creator's Sabbath is a day of rejoicing and worship for all mankind - is well reflected in Isaiah 66 where God predicts that even in the new Earth - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".

    However in Col 2 - Paul is correcting an abuse that takes the form of judging others - in the same way that Christ condemns it pre-cross in Matt 7:1-4.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Good day, Bob,

    Thanks for your post, you showing kind interest in mine.
    Nevertheless, forgive me for criticising your single-minded 'creation' viewpoints concerning God's Sabbath Day. They have never been overwelmingly convincing; why? simply because they lack the eschatological dimension, I should say. What would give the Sabbath an eschatological significance? Only Jesus! If you cannot show me Christ in Genesis 2, I'm not interested. Said Karl Barth any Christianity that is not totally and unreservedly eschatology, totally and unreservedly has nothing to with Jesus Christ! I admire him greatly, and don't think it would be wise to contradict such a great Christian thinker.
    I wrote previously that NO act of God of the first Seventh Day was an act of creating or of creation - they ALL are divine acts, belonging with and to the essence of salvation - which could be the case ONLY if God acted in Christ, there, at the beginning. Therefore, whether making l;ogical sense or not, I believe CREATION was "finished", "blessed", "sanctified", and given "rest" in Jesus - in Him the 'historical Jesus' - the Man from Nazareth and Son of God. And ultimately, this all happened when He was riased from the dead "incorruptable" - here' creation's "ending" and "end" - its "Beginning and End" as John says in Rv.3.
    Gerhard Ebesoehn
    PS. Again - there is NOTHING contextually or literally in Colossians that suggests a 'judging' going on between Church members. The whole Letter deals whith the Church in the WORLD, and as OPPSED by the WORLD, and how the CHURCH should react to the WORLD and its haughtiness. Paul is the champion of the Church and its freedom vis a vis what Christ has done for it. The very same situation exists TODAY, and today applies to the Church in the celebrating of her Sabbats' Feasts.
    God's Sabbath-blessing!
    Gerhard
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Well I don't claim to be able to change people's minds.

    However the point remains - that since the FIRST account of the 7th day being "made a holy day" is in Gen 2:3-4 at the conclusion of creation week

    and since the FACT of a 7 day week is ONLY 7 days because of that ADDED 7th day -- the Sabbath

    and since the FIRST full deliniation of the day starts with "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it Holy... FOR in SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE the heavens and the earth... and rested on the Seventh day THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made it Holy"

    You can "see" why I allow the explicit use of the day that God gave it (as a memorial of creation)- to be of primary consideration.

    Your suggestion that this should be viewed with a great deal of celebration is not necessarily opposed to my emphasis on honoring the creator's own "Holy Day".

    Your idea that God was giving something to Adam related to sin, redemption, restoration remains to be proven.

    I will grant you this - if the world lasts 6000 years and then experiences a 1000 year period of rest during the Millenium (something I certainly believe) - then we get "added application" for the symbolism of the day. However God has not come right out and said that yet.


    In John 1:1-4 we find that Christ IS the Creator of Gen 2:3. So when the Creator gives mankind His OWN Holy Day- a memorial of HIS creative act, He is perfectly correct to THEN say "Christ is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27.

    Your idea that Gen 1-2:3 is "missing God the Son" can not be supported in all of scripture.

    Your idea that God was teaching "sin" or "redemption" in Gen 1-2:3 ALSO can not be supported in all of scripture.

    In Isaiah 66 we find that in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL mankind will come before God to worship" -- there again - we have God the Son invovled in that future observance of the Christ-the-Creator's 7th day Sabbath.

    How you get to "no Christ the Creator in Gen 1-2:3" is beyond me.

    A nice kind of topic-weaving-gymnastic - but not supportable in the text. The fact that Christ the Creator is making frogs on day 5 - does not make frogs "salvific".

    The fact that Christ the Creator made the moon on day 4 does not make the moon "salvific" and the fact that Christ the Creator gave mankind His OWN Holy Day -- His own 7th day Sabbath memorial of HIS Creative acts in Gen 1-2:3 does not make that Creation-Memorial "salvific".

    The application that we see in Heb 4 certainly applies a model of salvation in the Sabbath "day of rest" but this does not mean that the Creator's Seventh-day Memorial of Creation had any reference to "salvation" for Adam.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    I beg to differ.

    The text is clear "Let no one JUDGE YOU regarding food, drink,

    The error in the local church is being defined clearly here
    - philosophy, empty deception,
    - the tradition of men (not of God) - "man made religion"
    - and "elementary principles of this world" (possibly paganism in some form).

    None of it is "acceptable" none of it is "to be viewed as a good thing". All this error is utterly condemned as originating with man - not God.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Here Christ is presented as the only solution for our sin problem. The goal of making us alive by accomplishing forgiveness of sins for us.

    Christ represents all of God - not some small nice-but-insufficient bifurcation of God. The totality of God in power, word, knowledge and love is embodied in Christ. The error then (as today) was apparently in dissecting God - Christ was "this part of God but not that old part of God".

    Paul focuses on the problem - sin causing separation and requiring forgiveness of sin via payment of our eternal death - debt - for us to survive.

    Christ's death (payment for our sin) that accomplishes the solution "forgiving us all our transgressions".

    In this way Paul eliminates the basis for false teachers to come in and say that Christ was "insufficient" and a works-based religion is needed. They could not then argue that we still owe a debt of sin, and must achieve the goal (forgiveness) by some other means. (A means that seems to include listening to “their vain philosophy” fables and deceit and judged by their man-made tradition. according to vs 8)

    -----------------------------------------------------
    Notice the context is that of making you alive solving the problem of you being dead in transgression.

    What defines what sin is??
    (Rom 5, 7 tell us that the law defines what sin is - it is not a "record of guilt" but a standard of perfect sinless righteousness)

    What defines our transgression?

    Clearly it is defined by a record of which sins we commit and how often. A record of some kind must exist to show what each individual owes "according to his deeds"
    Clearly the "decrees against us" are written in these books out of which each person is judged "according to their deeds".

    So then, what records/defines what each person's debt is? The law is the basis for knowing what is sin, but it is not the transaction of judgment specific to each individual - it is not a “record of guilt” it is instead a standard of judgment. It is the authoritative legal basis upon which judgment is rendered the standard that is compared to the life and actual deeds of each human. The resulting judgment then shows exactly where each one falls short of the glory of God. All are placed under condemnation and incur a debt of sin specific to their actual sins. The Holy Just and true “the spiritual Law of God” (Rom 7) is not that record of sin – it is not the “certificate of debt owed”.

    The books of record show our "debt" they record each deed and also determine the debt owed - the "certificate of debt".

    However - it is not the books of record that are "nailed to the cross" - rather it is the "debt" that they say each individual "owes". The certificate of debt that they decree as owed (a decree made by comparing our lives against the perfect standard - God's Law), is what is nailed to the cross and stamped "paid in full". And this - for every one of mankind.

    But to avail ourselves of that cancelled debt - we must choose Christ - choose to be born again - to have the LAW of God written in our heart - instead of nailed and done away with. To have the new creation that walks after the spirit - instead of rebelling against the Law of God - being hostile to God's Law - refusing to submit and indeed UNNABLE to submit to it (Roman 8:5-8)

    Christ took the "stroke due us" the debt of death (Rom 623) was paid, nailed to the cross. It is the debt that is paid - the "certificate of debt" which itself "consists of decrees against us" faithfully records our deeds and what is owed individually -- and Christ pays the debt accumulated by each one of us.

    Obviously when the police write out a ticket with a fine attached, then when the fine is canceled (via payment) - the law that defines obedience and violation - is not also cancelled.

    Also note that the law that defines our sin - is not some local law specific only to the Hebrew nation. (as if only Hebrews need a savior)

    God's law places all under condemnation.
    Notice that in Galatians 3 Paul equates the law known to NT saints with “scripture” known to NT saints. God’s infallible word places all mankind “under sin” telling the truth – that we are all sinners and in need of a savior – someone who will pay our debt and redeem us.

    It must be the law that defines debt and for which the cross was intended as payment. That can only be one law - the moral law. (without it there is no debt, no sin Rom 5).

    Rom 5:13 sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Rom 4:14 15 for the law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Col 2:16 refers explicitly to judging one another (within the Christian group) regarding our observance of food and drink regulations, festivals, new moon celebrations, "or a Sabbath day". This is not a new sin that became sin only after the cross - rather judging one another was sin before anything was nailed to the cross (Matt 7:1-4).

    Furthermore - Col 2:16 identifies the things about which they were judged to include the things of God - whose origin was in the word of God - his shadow (predictive) Sabbaths given in Lev 23. "things which are a mere shadow of things to come". That is, things which point not to present or past reality but to a future events that "belong to Christ". Things already given for the people of God - prior to Paul's day that pointed predictively toward the messiah when given.

    These annual feast days -- shadow Sabbaths -- point forward to a future event regarding the Messiah. But “the traditions of man” had turned these “shadow Sabbaths” into a kind of alternative to the Savior who died for our sins and paid our debt. Their judgmental spirit is condemned in the Matt 7 statement of Christ saying “Judge not that you be not judged” and Paul says that even after the cross – the spirit if judging was not to be tolerated. In Romans 14 Paul observes of these annual feast days "one observes every day and another observes one above another but all observe to the Lord" Rom 14,

    If the shadow for Sabbath was the eternal life in heaven - if that were the fulfillment of the salvation promise in Sabbath – “then” it would not be fulfilled yet so there would be no excuse for ignoring Christ the Creator’s Holy day today. More than this – once we get to the New Earth –all has been fulfilled – all of salvation history is over – but even then – Sabbath is not “done away”. As mentioned in Isaiah 66 Sabbath is applicable even in the new heavens and the new earth.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Your claim that this is a dispute between church members and pagans about the Sabbath is not credible. You say " The whole Letter deals whith the Church in the WORLD, and as OPPSED by the WORLD, and how the CHURCH should react to the WORLD and its haughtiness.

    Nowhere does Paul say this is the WORLD or that this is a reference to anyone from the OUTSIDE.

    Rather the whole point is that these are teachers, leaders that the church IS inclined to hear because they come to them from WITHIN as PAul points out in Acts 20:30 and in 2Cor 11:12-13.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Dear Bob,
    How we beg to differ while we agree on so much. Don't understand me wrong, I believe the Seventh Day of God's creating in the beginning the Sabbath still for the people of God to be kept. (I'll use the desacrating name, "Saturday", only to make myself clear.)
    You wrote a long article, and it will be impossible to respond in detail. So I'll try to explain some facets of the Sabbath Day I believe have been overlooked and neglected if not rejected for NO REASON BUT TO WILLY NILLY UNDERSCORE SUNDAY-WORSHIP. Colossians 2:16-17 serves this end well. You have yourselves here quoted substantial portions from the Letter, and they all confirm my stance that in this Letter we do not find internal Church strife, but this excellent Body that in fact "belongs to Christ" assailed by the exterior factors and dangers coming from the "world", its "philosophy", its "principles", and -curtly- idolatry. "Let not you (Passive - the Church) be judged by anyone ('tis' OF THIS WORLD)". If you can see that, then it will follow automatically that you will understand that Paul does not reprimand the Church, but warns the Church against the evil outside world and its influences that may enter or try to enter into the cosed circle of God's Elect the Church. And if you can see and agree upon this point, I cannot see how you could disagree Paul encourages the Church in her freedom of Sabbaths' celebrations ('eating and drinking OF Sabbaths' -Genitive). All the while Paul speaks of the spiritual virtues and truths of the Christian Faith - and in these verses he does no differently. He speaks of the Church enjoying the spiritual meat and drink of Jesus Christ and His redemption availed in resurrection from the dead - verses 12 to 15 in this chapter and almost identically repeated in the 3rd chapter. IN THIS CONTEXT says Paul, "These things - this Sabbaths' celebrations of yours - are the shadow of what is to come - the BODY indeed which is Christ's". The free and joyous celebration of the Sabbath goes with the Church as the shadow goes with the body. It in fact is a "spectre" of this Body as it would be-"come" -would "grow with the increase of God" (a verse or so on).
    Now, the Sabbath in the beginning is never said to have been a memorial of creation - it is, but that fact fades into insignificance against what GOD employed it FOR: To rest, to complete, to bless, to sanctify - what else is this but God's "works" through and in Jesus Christ? And that means our salvation? Hebrews 4 teaches exactly this and nothing else than this.
    Gerhard
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    The Fourth Commandment says, "Remember the Sabbath Day", not, 'remember creation'. It says, remember the Sabbath Day which was God's Day of Rest. In other words, it says, 'Remember God's Rest (Day). And that implies, Remember HOW, GOD, RESTED - and "from ALL His (God's -not man's) works, RESTED". How could it be better illustrated God speaks here of Jesus Christ in His Work that really and finally brought about the REST OF GOD - our salvation?
    Gerhard
     
  14. wopik

    wopik
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    Colossian 2:16-17

    don't let anyone condemn you for eating or drinking or for keeping the holydays and Sabbath.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    In Gen 2 - the Creator's Holy day is in fact the very seventh-day of Creation Week. Each time we honor it we show that recognize "That He Blessed the Seventh day and made it holy" Gen 2:3 at the end of creation - making a total of 7 days not merely 6.

    The Sabbath is the only thing MADE on the 7th day of Creation week.

    In Exodus 20 God says "FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE... and rested the Seventh day - THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Seventh day AND MADE it Holy".

    Even more to the point the command that God gives says "REMEMBER the Seventh-day to keep it holy... FOR IN SIX days the LORD MADE.."


    It is MADE holy in Gen 2 PURELY because of its creation context according to the literal reading of Gen 2:3 AND according to God's summary of that Gen 1-2:3 sequence that Christ the Creator Gives in Exodus 20:8-11.

    It says "remember the Sabbath day... FOR IN Six days the LORD MADE..and RESTED the Seventh day from all His work..THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED and ..."

    Gen 2:3 is not trying to redeem fallen Adam who is not yet one day old NOR fallen.

    Exodus 20:8-11 says nothing about the fall of mankind it ONLY mentions the CREATION of mankind and our duty to Christ the Creator in honoring the Creator's own memorial of Creation week.

    From the very start of creation itself, pre-sin, and pre-Gospel - we had the Creation week - a 7 day sequence that ends with the Sabbath.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Gerhard,

    You said ...

    The pagan world certainly had "many other gods", and "many other holy days" to add to those that Christians observed.

    Nothing would please the pagan world more than to have Christians "add" Christianity in among the pantheon of gods - as just "another god" and "another holy day".

    However - that is not the problem Paul addressed in Col 2. Nowhere does he mention "the world condemning the Christians over their Sabbath worship" NOR does he mention the worlds desire that Christians add the feasts, food and drink requirements as simply "another set of rules" to the existing pantheon of gods, rules and feast days.

    Rather - Paul addresses the Acts 20 problem or errors coming "From among your own selves", from within. The problem of criticism "inside the group" of Jews and Gentiles who were joining together as one body.

    My reason for including the first 16 verses in the review of the "context" of Col 2 is to show that this is very much an "in-house" problem that Paul is trying to solve.

    In Chapter 2 - Paul never speaks of "the evil outside world".

    In fact we have no record of any kind - of the outside wicked world trying to edit or adjust or monitor the practice of Jews or Christians in regarding to their own holy days, food, drink etc.

    The outside world wanted to ADD to them - but the outside world never came in to say "hey! That is not the way to celebrate the Lord's table"! Nor did they historically argue "HEY observe Passover some other way".

    The ONLY voices of judgment and censure on exising Jewish and Christian practices came from either hellenistic Jews or Jewish-Christians seeking to make Jews out of the Gentile-Christians etc.

    No context is given in all of scripture for judging the way the Jews or the Gentile-Christians celebrated any given feast.

    And if you can see and agree upon this point, I cannot see how we can differ on this subject.

    Paul says that the annual ceremonial sabbaths of Lev 23 are in fact "shadow Sabbaths" that point forward to the sacrifice of Christ. This is very true. Each of these annual Sabbaths pointed FORWARD to the Work of Christ in sacrifice and in redemption.

    As Paul says in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed".

    "Remember" (memorialize) the Seventh-day to keep it holy...FOR IN SIX days the Lord MADE... Therefore the Lord BLESSED the Seventh day and MADE it Holy.

    Impossible to miss.

    Think about it, the greatest heresy in Christendom today is to deny Christ the Creator's role in Creating mankind -- in the form of the doctrines and myths of evolutionism. That would not even BE possible if the saints were still honoring Christ the Creator's memorial of Creation week in the memorial HE made and HE created on the 7th-day of that week.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Thanks, Wopik!
    Your 'version' says some things quite well: Who does Paul address? The Church of course - the whole Christian Church. Then who is he warning the Church against? Obviously against outsiders - the "world" so definitely mentioned in his Letter! Then: "Don't (you - Christ's Body His Church) condemn you ..." and if NO ONE may or can 'condemn' you, YOU may rest assured you're on the right track "for (your) eating or drinking". The only problem with your 'version' begins here where it says the same of the "holy days and sabbath" as of "eating or drinking", which is impossible since the Greek does not do so. The Greek has "holy days and sabbaths" in the Possessive -the "eating or dring" BELONGS to or are OF them, and describes these devotional occasions as of Free Festivals. Christianity has but two: her Sabbaths and her Lord's Days' ("month's / monthly") Suppers. To understand these from verse 16-17 cannot be shown wrong.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Sorry, little error, Paul uses the Passive: "Do not YOU (the Church|) BE judged ("condemned") by ANYONE (of this WORLD) ..."
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    [/QUOTE]"Remember" (memorialize) the Seventh-day to keep it holy...FOR IN SIX days the Lord MADE... Therefore the Lord BLESSED the Seventh day and MADE it Holy.

    Impossible to miss.
    ...
    Bob [/QB][/QUOTE]

    Yes dear Bob, if one omit "God rested". Fill in where you have the dots, and the "therefore" refers to God's rest and makes of it, the reason for remembering the Sabbath Day. I have nothing against remembering the Sabbath Day "as a mememorial of the creation'. I do object to making this the only or the more important meaning of the Sabbath Day.
    If anybody finds it difficult to believe the creation, how is he going to believe the Christ? But if a man received grace to believe Jesus Christ he won't have any problem to believe that He is the Creator or to believe His work as the Creator. I find much greater disbelieve (=disobedience) nowadays in people's denial of Jesus Christ than their denial of the creation. One is rather irrelevant; the other of eternal consequence - decide for yourself which.
    I think there is a gulf between your opinion and mine and perhaps also between you and me, created by one's inflexibility of opinion. I grew up with exactly your views on Colossian 2:16-17, and I have many friends who would rather die than part with those ossified ideas. What could one loose by sacrificing them? One could loose infallibility, 'truth' that is no more than false security, and such things. What could one gain by sacrificing one's steretype ideas? Want could find Jesus Christ is of the essence! And that, allow me to witness, is what I have found through reading this Letter and to hear IT speak, and not my Church or Tradition.
    I have answered all your objections in great detail in my book (Part Four) which you can off-load from www.biblestudents.co.za. I say "all yours" because yours differ in no respect from the usual which are ALL pro-Sunday worship, whether meant to be p[ro-Sunday worship or not meant to be.
    Gerhard
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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