Columbia Evangelical Seminary

What kind of oversight is there in the program. A mentor can have wonderful credentials and yet be fairly inept in guiding a student through the process, don't you think? I've taken courses under bona fide PhD's who were too lenient or who had quit growing themselves.

Bill

 

1. Before I did a bit of research on the accreditation issue, I thought CES was just another one of those "diploma mills." But I will gladly recommend CES.

2. I like their approach. It's somewhat different from the American model.

3. But think about all the scholars that we have come to admire so much. A host of them go to Europe to do their doctorates, which model is different from the American.

4. Dr. Ray Anderson is a mentor of mine and he got his PhD from University of Edinburgh in Scotlnad and he was telling what he had to do to get it. It's not the American approach. But those guys are geniune, first rank scholars (Carson, Mounce, Grudem, etc).

5. But I will gladly recommend CES over LBU, though I have heard some good things from them.

 

==Yes, I would recommend it. The format of that school, however, is somewhat different than others. I think it is more of a mentor/independent study/research format. However since it is not accredited it is unlikely that accredited schools would honor degrees/credits from CES.

From their website:
"Columbia Evangelical Seminary is not accredited. However, as stated above, if you do not absolutely need a degree from an accredited school, why spend the extra money earning one when a degree from a non-accredited school may serve your purposes just as well?"

http://www.columbiaseminary.edu/

 

1. But there are a list of a number of their grads who have been accepted at RA/ATS schools?

2. Isn't your statement a little bit overstated?

 

1. I think you have presented an airtight argument for CES.

2. But here's a question that I have for all accreditation buffs: Is there are place in ministry training for schools like, CES, LBU, Bethany or even Andersonville?

3. Do not misunderstand me: I think it would be a serious mistake for someone who has a doctorate from say Andersonville to think that he is on the same level as someone with a doctorate from Southern Seminary.

 

My feelings about CES are mixed:

The two or three times I spoke with Rick Walston, he seemed above board and sincere. Yet,

re Bethany: I don't know why in his guide (which I now have lost) he called Bethany of Dothan a good school. If it is good, then why doesn't he list his degree from Bethany which I understand he has.

I understand that Walston's dissertation must be OK since the SA uni approved it and Saqa approved the uni. And I confess I should probably not reference it now as I have not a hard copy and as the product no longer is online for inspection as it once was, but I still do not not get how his dissertation on gifts of the Spirit could be in NT, since the dissertation(relying on memory of exhaustive discussions on degreeinfo now) used such very elemental tools of research (as Vine's for the lexicon) and did not interact with the more complex issues (as the identification of the prophets in Eph 2). It did not interact either with notable cognate dissertations as Grudems or the cessationists viewpoint as expressed in academic journals as Bibliotheca Sacra. One might expect more of an academic, but I understand that Walston has expressed that he intended his "research" to be read by the average Christian. So, everyone must decide for himself if such a caveat is good reason for poor research.

IMO, examples of a few CES grads getting into accredited schools is like saying, if you want to be really successful, then go to CES because James White is successful and he went to CES.

The test of utility I think is not what a few can do, but what what is the common experience and expectation. The fact is, an accredited seminary may accept a number of admiisions who have no degrees at all!

Why does CES not list instead a number of RA schools that are committed to accepting CES grads? Wouldn't that be better proof of CES' utility?

I really like the academic qualifications of the mentors that Walston hires. That shows I think that Walston seeks quality in his school.

But I have come to think that equally important is the interaction in quantity and quality between the student and the mentor. Per class or subject, just how much energy and time do the mentors give the individuals under their care?

Seems like I read once on the CES website that the expectation should be that a mentor will spend six or so hours on an indiviual class and student. Were this so, is that time sufficient to tutor such subjects as systematic theology, church history, language, and others? In my small experience, it takes 6 hours just to evaluate a single student product of 20-30 pages and to provide efficient feedback and suggestions. But maybe I'm just very slow and inefficient.

I appreciate the dated inspections I made of the CES pages because Walston up front explains accreditation and CES' lack of that. But CES has been around quite a good time and was formerly called something else. So, if CES is good, why not seek some form of accreditation?

If it cannot get RA, then how about some form of NA? What specifically about CES prevents it from getting accreditation at least by a NA?

As it is, or was last time I looked, and I understand the situation, even the Oregon Degree Authorization, and Oregon is just across the river from CES, will not allow grads of CES to use their degrees in connection with employment. I should have look that up again, as my looking was, perhaps, five years ago. Perhaps now CES grads can do that.

The Distance Education guru, Steve Levicoff, who now posts on degreediscussion, had really bad comments about CES is his book NIFI, Steve has told me in forum discussions. I don't agree with a lot that Levicoff writes, but I don't think all of his comments could have been off-target, and I wonder if they any of them still are fitting. Interested parties might query Steve at degreediscussion.

But despite all this nay saying, I would recommend CES, certainly over Slidell , Andersonville, and the like, to any individual who is sure that an accredited degree is not needed. BUt, I doubt that we all know what we may need in the future. I would not claim to know even what tomorrow brings.

Forgive any stepping on toes please,

Bill G

 

No school is for everyone, so, I'm not sure how to respond to that insight or how it adds anything to the issues.

But good folk come here to be advised by something more than "go investigate."

So, wouldn't it be helpful to give here a list of RA grad schools that will without restrictions or conditions , [ie, not on "a trial basis," not on the same basis schools right along accept people with NO degree at all] accept CES grads?

 

Uz, I think that is a good Idea. Why don't you ask them to do that. With 65-70 students each paying about $100 a month this school is ready for the world of high finance especially after it pays it's mentors. I think they should also offer a graduate course in money management.:godisgood:

 

=====

CES more rigorous than Liberty.

Hmm. That is an interesting comparison ,and I cannot at this time provide evidence against that. I certainly believe it possible that a UA school may teach better than a RA/NA school.

Further, I know that you would not suggest what you do without having substantial reasons to do so!! I would like very much to learn these reasons in detail.

You have occasioned by your CES vs Liberty a real opportunity to test that possibility of one UA school excelling one RA/NA school.

Let's do it.

So, please layout your reasons why you think the masters at Liberty may require less than the master's at CES.

Thanks,

Bill G