Columbia Evangelical Seminary

From what you know about CES, would you recommend it if you weren't teaching there?

 

Let me remove the non sequitor element: Would you recommend CES to someone who is seeking a seminary to prepare for the ministry?

 

I am not aware of his doing a Bethany degree. I believe he did his doctorate at Griggs, I think. I may ask him next time I talk to him.

 

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Good idea. BB should not just be a place where untested assumptions are allowed to dominate or implications go unchallenged.

So, yes ask him why a yahoo search says that he has a Dothan MA degree. Ask him why, if that be true, he doesn't list the Dothan degree. Ask him too why in the earlier edition of the guide he said Dothan was good.

Could an unaccredited school be "good." Well sure!

Could an unaccredited school as CES even teach "gooder" than does an accredited school as Liberty?

Might be, but if that is assumed or implied here, then let's at the minimum be informed of the reasons. Let's see , eg, comparisons between the schools of same level and subject courses in their objectives, materials, assignments, and strategies of instruction and evaluation.

We know that the teams of TRACS and the regional accreditor of Liberty oversees the Liberty curriculum, and I hope they do that as well as the one individual (is it?), Walston, oversees his mentors.

 

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Rhet, respectfully,

My question of interest is whether, as you suggested, a master's level class from CES may be more challenging and efficient than a master's level class from Liberty.

Since you made that suggestion, and you teach at both, why would I contact Josh at CES to see if what you say is right?

Is it not sort of up to you to explain the why of the what you suggest and not up to Walston?



Bill G

 

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Rhet

I appreciate the clarification that you have not mentored with CES. I knew that, but I assumed you had an idea of the rigor with which you would do that since you are an approved mentor with CES, and you compared CES with Liberty (my issue here).

At any rate, our virtual friendship and mutual respect motivates me to drop the issue of CES quality, at least for now.

As I opined before in this thread, that CES hires qualified mentors, and I can add seems to have respectable requirements for degrees, motivates me to assume that CES intends to be academically respectable.

So, this old man signs off the topic...unless goaded on:laugh:

 

And then again the student may complain that the course lacked rigor and was not challenging.:godisgood: Also the student would see through busy work and want it replaced with fruitful work. Work me like a government mule but I need the right kind of food to do the work, and I want big powerful muscles when I'm done.

 

CES v. Liberty

There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides and any comparison is bound to suffer if you are coming from the other side. In my very limited experience with Liberty (1 undergrad and 1 grad student), I noted what I considered relative weaknesses. (Disclaimer: This is not to say Liberty is a poor program.) For one, I thought some of the tests were too heavily skewed toward objective type test items. IMHO, graduate students need more free response items that demand the higher cognitive skills in comparison, contrast and essay instead of lists and factual recall. Factual learning is demonstrated by its artful use in the essay response.

Also, I was a little disappointed in the Liberty system of portfolio credits (undergraduate) for life experiences. It seemed that the assessment process and documentation lacked rigor and scrutiny. In other words, it was too easy to make a little look like a whole lot.

In comparing the two institutions, we must recognize their different approaches to DE. Liberty is more along the traditional lines with organizational structure and proscribed activities whereas CES is highly individualized in a more freestyle learning approach. Who can say one approach is more rigorous than the other because there is certain to be variation even with the more structured program? A personalized, freestyle learning approach greatly appeals to me although I do recognize the inherent problems to be worked out and the temptation for cutting corners.

 

Bill, this has already been done. It is pretty well known and accepted that NA BJU (prior to their TRACS accreditation) performed better than many RA schools. For example, the BJU School of Education in the 1970's required all of their education graduates to take the NTE. Their scores were well above the national average and were substantially higher than all the other schools of education in SC. They maintained this record for over twenty years. Also, their fine arts students take a disproportionate number of prizes and honors in state and national competition. Furthermore, their graduates have a remarkable record of success in major graduate schools.

 

1. One other note: I've been using Dr. Richard A. Young's Intermediate NT Greek for sometime now and it is excellent. In fact, Dan B. Wallace, in his celebrated Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics makes ample use of Young's Grammar.

2. Young's Grammar was published in 1994 by Broadman and Holman, 11yrs before BJU NA accreditation. And Dan B. Wallace Greek Grammar came out in 1996from Zondervan, 9yrs before BJU NA accreditation.

3. Frankly, you guys would have to put this all into perspective. You are the experts. I'm just reporting. :thumbs:

 

Territorial hazard

You are absolutely right but I think this is a hazard to be encountered anywhere. Just read Reginald Damerell's Education's Smoking Gun: How Teachers' Colleges Have Destroyed Education in America for an eye-opener. Even the venerable Umass-Amherst graduate school is not immune.

IMHO, the Achilles heel of DE is accountability. How do we allow individualized and freestyle learning and keep it accountable? Structure and accountability mitigate against individualization, freedom and innovation. The answer, IMHO, is to find a balance point somewhere between.

 

Evolution of DE

Yes, he did list a Bethany degree at one time as well as one from Greenwich University (I think). It may be that his opinion of these degrees have changed. We must remember that Walston was into DE early on when most of us didn't know where the field was headed. This was a brand new game and no one really knew the rules or limits. A lot of programs that showed early promise (e.g. Clayton University, Columbia Pacific, Trinity, Greenwich University, et. al.) have died along the way. Perhaps his opinion of Bethany and other schools has changed over the years. Let's look at where the man is now. I remind you that Dr. Caner of Liberty listed a D.Min. from Emmanual University (NC) until recently.