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Come, Poor Sinner, Come.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Nov 30, 2002.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    What a wonderful expression from Grace Gems of the path being open for the sinner to come to God. You see as a Calvinist I believe that no one who repents and believes the gospel will be turned away. The natural man refuses to come. But the God-enabled man does come - always. I thank God that He never fails to draw effectually. How awful it would be if He did fail.

    Ken

    Wonder, O heavens, and be astonished, O earth!

    (Octavius Winslow "Evening Thoughts")

    "I tell you the truth, you can go directly to the
    Father and ask Him, and He will grant your
    request because you use My name." John 16:23

    That God should have erected in this lower world
    a throne of grace, a mercy-seat, around which may
    gather, in clustering and welcome multitudes . . .
    the helpless,
    the burdened,
    the friendless,
    the vile,
    the guilty,
    the deeply necessitous—
    that no poor comer, be . . .
    his poverty ever so great,
    his burden ever so heavy, or
    his case ever so desperate,
    should meet with the refusal of a hearing
    or a welcome, does greatly develop and
    magnify the riches of . . .
    His grace,
    His wisdom, and
    His love to sinners.

    What a God our God must be, thus to have
    appointed a meeting-place, an audience-chamber,
    for those upon whom all other doors were closed!

    But more than this—that He should have appointed
    Jesus as the door of approach to that throne—that
    He should have given His only-begotten and well
    beloved Son to be the "new and living way" of access,
    thus removing all obstruction in the path of the soul's
    coming, both on the part of Himself, and on the part
    of the sinner; that the door should be a crucified Savior
    —the wounds of the Son of God—that through blood,
    and that blood, the blood of the incarnate Deity,
    the guilty should approach—wonder, O heavens,
    and be astonished, O earth!

    Shall we say even more than this?

    For there is a yet lower depth in this love and
    condescension of God—that He should have sent
    His Spirit into the heart, the Author of prayer . . .
    dictating the petition;
    breathing in the soul;
    implanting the desire;
    convincing of the existing necessity;
    unfolding the character of God;
    working faith in the heart; and
    drawing it up to God through Jesus;
    seems the very perfection of His wisdom,
    benevolence, and grace! Wonder, O
    heavens, and be astonished, O earth!

    [ November 30, 2002, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #1 KenH, Nov 30, 2002
  2. Brutus

    Brutus Member
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    Amen Brother Ken [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #2 Brutus, Dec 2, 2002
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    How awful it would be if when He created Adam as a sinless holy perfect human - we charged "God with failure" because Adam chose to sin.

    Charging God with the failure of not "effectually creating a sinnless Adam" since Adam chose to fail - would be sad indeed.

    In Adam's failure we can clearly see that God effectually acts - in His all sufficiency and in sovereignly choosing to enable choice in mankind - the failure then is not "Required" nor "unnavoidable" - it is merely an "option" that man may "Choose" using the choice that God gives.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2002
  4. Charlie T

    Charlie T New Member

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    Bob,

    Are you saying that man has the same ability to choose as sinless Adam had?

    I am having trouble grasping what you mean besides saying that you are comparing God's effectual calling with Adam's creation.

    Adam's failing does not take away from his beginning state, does it?

    Since every man has chosen to sin, does that not indicate an inability to choose? Or, does it imply sinning is a superior choice that men logically choose?

    Or am I completely missing your point? :confused:

    Charlie

    [ December 13, 2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Charlie T ]
     
    #4 Charlie T, Dec 13, 2002
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually this is the "common ground" where both sides agree. Both agree that the John 12:32 "Drawing of ALL mankind" - ENABLES what total depravity disables.

    The difference is NOT that the Arminian argument is not appealing to a sufficient divine Gospel principle that would enable EVEN a sinner to act - the difference is that WE claim that man drawn under that John 12:32 power may ALSO choose NOT to accept life JUST as sinnless Adam did - whereas the Calvinist argument is that we are in so much BETTER position in that John 12:32 drawing that sinnless Adam that we CAN not make his mistake.

    The ones arguing for our being in a superior position to sinnless - perfect Adam are the Calvinists as they view the John 12:32 implications - that is not the Arminian claim.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Dec 13, 2002
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And that is the precise argument used in this thread to open the discussion. That IF man fails to accept what God enables him to accept - then it is GOD that failed - not man.

    You are correct it does not detract from that!

    Nor does man's failure to accept eternal life detract from the John 12:32 Drawing of all Mankind - and the John 16 "Convicting" of the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment.

    Christ stands outside the door of the heart and knocks - but if the one on the inside does not choose to open the door- that does not take away from Christ's standing out there and knocking -- yet blaming the failure on God is exactly what we see in the first few posts of this thread.

    Just as we agree that since every human agreed to sin (Adam and Eve BOTH) it does NOT mean that sin was superior to God's ENABLING choice for both Adam and Eve - so we also state that JUST because not everyone accepts eternal life - that does not mean that sin was more powerful than God's John 12:32 Drawing of All Mankind.

    Another point is that we agree that all mankind are totally depraved (sin) and that it is only the John 12:32 Drawing of All mankind - that enables totally depraved sinners to Choose life.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 13, 2002, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #6 BobRyan, Dec 13, 2002
  7. Charlie T

    Charlie T New Member

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    Bob,

    You are still left with some inferent problems.

    1. Did Christ accomplish anyone's salvation on the cross? Or, did He merely establish a PROGRAM by which some might choose Him?

    2. Who has sovereignty in the matter of salvation? God or Man?

    3. Can one "earn" their way to the final stage of salvation? Or, is it all God?

    4. John 6 Does the Father effectually call/give/draw/grant those who believe to the Son?

    Charlie
     
    #7 Charlie T, Dec 14, 2002
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As already pointed out - the ACT of Adam does not abolish the previous act of God in creating Him sinnless.

    The ACT of Christ in providing "The Atoning Sacrifice for Our Sins and not for our sins only but for those of the Whole World" (1John 2:2) is not "abolished" simply because "The whole world" does not choose life and light.

    Man's rejecting of God's plan of salvation does not "unn-accomplish" something.

    God removes the "either or" problem you suggest makes the solution simple.

    God "sovereignly CHOSE to enable free will for Adam". God Sovereignly chose to enable free will for Lucifer. God Sovereignly chose to enable free will for lost humanity (that are in total depravity and enslaved to sin) by "drawing ALL mankind to Himself" John 12:32.

    God's Choice is to give man choice AFTER enabling him via divine supernatural drawing "IF any man hear my voice and Open the Door - THEN I will Come in" Rev 3.

    Accepting a free gift is does not abolish the gift. IT exists EVEN though you CHOOSE to accept it. - Obviously.

    Indeed. As Christ effectually "Draws ALL mankind to Himself". John 12:32.

    As God "effectually" created Adam Sinnless.

    Adam WAS sinnless - and all mankind ARE drawn to God.

    I think we have already stated this in the previous points - but you seem to be looking for a way to ask the question such that all the Bible models no longer apply to the answer. I would agree that the Calvinist solution requires that you find such a way to state the question.

    My argument is that the Bible precidents set in scripture regarding God's actions and man's actions - still apply.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 15, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #8 BobRyan, Dec 15, 2002
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