Comments on the Judgment Seat of Christ pt 2 Thread

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Craigbythesea, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Is winning a debate so important that one would resort to having his opponents arrested and locked up in jail so that they can not present their data? From my point of view, winning a debate, either by stealth or by the presentation of facts, is not nearly as important as a discussion focused on learning the truth.
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    There are 3 (now 4) threads on this subject now active. I have always kindly avoided the threads whch were specified non-KJVO on the Versions forum. You never hear me whine over there.

    Let's cut the drama and debate. I'm not trying to win anything, Craig. You are my Christian brother. What do I stand to gain by "defeating you by stealth".

    We disagree on eternal security. That is a much more serious difference than disagreeing on the extent and severity of God's chastening.

    I believe once-saved-always-saved. You do not. Until we resolve that "debate" there is no use going on to God's chastening of his children.

    I believe in a literal 1000 year Kingdom on earth with Christ on David's literal throne ruling the world from literal Jerusalem. Deafposttrib does not. How can I possibly debate Millennial exclusion with someone who is a very confused partial-preterist?

    I am not "locking you out". It takes about 30 seconds to start your own thread (as you have done.)


    Lacy
     
  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    You have nothing to gain, but very much to lose. Satan, on the other hand, is hoping for another victory through another false doctrine. One of his favorite tactics is to cause confusion and doubt about hell. The teaching of hell in the Bible is explicitly clear, but Satan has nonetheless found a small foothold in the metaphor that Jesus used in Matt. 5:26 due to the profound ignorance of foolish men who don’t know any better than to base a Bible doctrine on a metaphor rather than interpret a metaphor on the basis of plain language.

    Matt. 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

    Profoundly ignorant and foolish men have believed that they found in this verse the doctrine of purgatory, and other such men the doctrine of universalism. The doctrine of purgatory, being a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, held no promise for Satan among IFB believers, but it is such an important doctrine to him that he has clothed it in the new names of millennial exclusion and kingdom exclusion, and some IFB believers, having no education or discernment, are beginning to swallow the bait, threatening the respectability and believability of very IFB congregation in the entire world. And the threat does not stop with IFB congregations. Satan is no fool; he is our arch enemy, and we need to be aware of his tactics.

    1 Pet. 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
     
  4. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Craig;
    You obviously do not know much about the doctrine of purgatory.
    You obviously have a different take on accountability to God for your behavior after you are saved.
    You obviously have a fairly arrogant view of your education as compared to ANYBODY else's who may be in opposition to your point of view.
    Why do I even bother?
    Because there are young believers who may visit this board. They need to BE WARNED against such men who might lead them astray. They may be influenced by the spirit of arrogance which is anathema to a christian's testimony.
    These poor young believers NEED ME to warn them so they do not go astray.
    Sound familiar Craig? :D [​IMG]
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Jim,

    You know very well that I have always treated you in a polite and respectful manner, and I would appreciate it if you would reciprocate that courtesy and respect.

    You know absolutely nothing about the extent of my knowledge of the doctrine of purgatory, and yet you criticize it rather than posting any examples of where my knowledge of purgatory is lacking.

    No, they do not need you to warn them that the Baptist teaching about the doctrine of purgatory is false, for the Baptist teaching about the doctrine of purgatory is NOT false. Joey Faust’s teaching about purgatory, however, is false, and we all know that—well, except for a certain three or four of us!

    Have you read Father F.X. Shouppe’s book on purgatory? It has been translated from the French into English and is published by Tan Books.
     
  6. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    1) Does the RC church believe purgatory has nothing (AT ALL) to do with salvation/justification?

    2) Does the RC church believe that Purgatory is in the heart of the Earth and lasts only until the New Heaven and New Earth?

    3) Does the RC church believe that no-one can get out of purgatory ever until the 1000 years (After the JSOC, before the GWT) is past? (Seems I remember something about indulgences in my second-rate Bible school days.)

    4) Does the RC church believe that Purgatory doesn't even begin until after the JSOC?

    5) Does the RC church believe in Eternal Security of the believer?

    6) Does the RC church believe that Hell and the Lake of Fire are different places?

    7) Does the RC church believe that there is no such place as Purgatory?

    8) Does the RC church believe in "the Blood plus nothing"?


    I believe deep in your heart you understand the very significant differences. It seems that you are at such a loss for words and Biblical precepts that you just keep repeating the "purgatory" mantra.

    Once I saw this lynx in a zoo. He just walked around in circles all day long. It was very sad to see such a noble animal in such a state.

    Lacy
     
  7. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    It seems the biggest objection anyone had to purgatory was that one could buy indulgences or say prayers for the dead to shorten their stay (or your own if you decided you might be heading that direction) and that the Pope could decide if you were in or out and how long you had to stay or how much you had to pay? I think the Catholic church may actually be tweaking Purgatory in these last days to more closely resemble biblical chastisement, but it still contains the indulgences and requiem masses, etc... and I'm pretty sure they would also tell you you have to be Catholic before you can even go to purgatory.
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    I am not the one who is making a zoo out of these Baptist forums. :eek:
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Craig,

    I am not the one who is pacing around the same rut instead of debating.

    I love you brother but you haven't answered an argument or a question with a clear logical, Biblical answer in quite a while now.

    You have called me ignorant, a Catholic, and a heretic. You have called me a KJVO Twilight zoned Faustite. You have a Govett book. He is not KJVO by any stretch. He predates Joey (and me) by several years 1831-1901.

    Lacy
     
  10. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    You could have fooled me!

    Where have you been, dude? If I answered it, by definition the answer was clear, logical, and Biblically sound. Besides that, Uncle Russ has been making me think so much that my mind is on over-load. And then I got a Personal Message from this guy’s wife—and I haven’t yet decided how to respond to it. It would be rude to ignore her, but I really don’t know what to say.

    Nonetheless, I will be very glad to seriously and Biblically deal with any passage that you may like regarding the millennium as long as the passage is not from The Revelatilon. As I told your brother James, that book is out of the area of my expertise. I have fewer than 50 commentaries on that book, and I have never studied it in depth.

    By the way, I do have Robert Govett’s 556 page commentary on Romans (along with 225 or so others).. Would you like to debate a verse in Romans?

    No, Mr. Evans, I have not called you any of those things.

    As I mention above, I have Govett’s commentary on Romans, as well as his Kingdom Studies. On page 281 of his commentary on Romans he writes regarding 8:1,

    “The addition ‘who walk,’ &c, is not genuine. It is genuine in verse 4. But we may trace in several instances how the copyists put in or left out words where they thought the statements of inspiration were “incautious” and “unguarded” in their discoveries of Grace: 1 Cor. ix. 20.”

    Robert Govett also believed that Christians are saved from the consequences of sin by the death of Christ, but saved from sin by their own death. In other words, Robert Govett’s view of the atonement of Christ was very inadequate.


    I have the major works by all three of these authors on the topic of Bible bibliography, and I will check out these quotes and get back to you.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    This quote is accurate, word for word. Cyril Barber made this comment in reference to R. Govett's Gospel Analogies and Other Sermons.

    I have not been able to locate this quote. Wilbur Smith wrote a book, The Minister in His Study in which he suggests hundreds of books for inclusion in a minister’s library, but no books by R. Govett are included. This comment, if it is genuine, was apparently in Reference to R. Govett’s The Apocalypse: Expounded by Scripture. C. Spurgeon does not include this work in his catalog of commentaries on The Revelation.

    Only one of R. Govett’s commentaries is mentioned by C. Spurgeon in his catalog of commentaries, that is, his commentary on Isaiah. About this work Spurgeon commented, “Scholarly and conscientious. The prophecy is interpreted literally.” I have not been able to locate the comment quoted by Lacy, although C. Barber also quotes it.

    Dr. Cyril Barber lavishly praises several works by Robert Govett. Of Govett’s The Kingdom of God Future, however, Barber simply writes, “Contains messages covering a variety of themes dealing with the kingdom, from its present mystery form to its future consummation.”

    Lacy, is Govett’s The Kingdom of God Future the same work as Govett’s Kingdom Studies? If not, C. Barber does not mention Govett’s Kingdom Studies and he may not even be aware of it.

    I now need to study Robert Govett’s writings in detail and find out for myself just what he did and did not write.
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    The Kingdom of God Futureis a short book defending the doctrine of a literal future Kingdom of Christ on Earth.

    Kingdom Studies is a collection of written sermons on various subjects.

    TABLE OF CONTENTS:

    Forward

    1. The Race and the Crown
    2. Israel's History, the Church's Warning
    3. The Millennial Kingdom
    4. The Gift and the Prize
    5. Mount Sinai and Mount Zion (Hebrews 12:12-29)
    6. A Word to Antimillenarians
    7. Stephen's Accusation, Defense, and Martyrdom
    8. King Solomon & the Apostle Paul or the Earthly Calling & the Heavenly
    9. Baptism and the Kingdom
    10. The Sabbath and the Lord's Day
    11. The Consequences of Jesus Being the Son of David
    12. The Visible Glory of God
    13. Unwatchful Believers of the Church Will Be Left in the Future Great Tribulation
    14. Resting and Wrestling


    Many of his works are available online for free and many are available for sale here:

    http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/default.htm
     

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