Communion of Saints Prayers to the Dead

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Sep 7, 2002.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    When asked - my Catholic contacts inform me that they pray to the dead saints in heaven because of the teaching of tradition in the Roman Catholic Church.

    But when pressed for Biblical support, they say that Matt 17 is their basis for dead saints communing with the living and helping the living.

    Of course we know that non-Christian religions pray to their dead ancestors and worship them as having life after death.

    But what about this idea of Matt 17 establishing a basis for prayers to the dead?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ September 07, 2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    We don't pray to dead saints. We pray to alive saints. And the Roman Catholic Church merely affirms and maintains this belief.

    I wouldn't call this the "basis" for the belief, but it's support. This merely proves what I just said, that those who die on earth in the hope of rising again...ARE ALIVE, as were Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration of Christ.

    As long as you realize that Catholics don't pray to "dead ancestors" nor worship those who have gone before us.
     
  3. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bob --

    I assume you are referencing the Transfiguration and Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah.

    Well, let's see. Jesus, a man, just as you and I are, speaks with the spirits of Moses and Elijah, whose bodies were probably long past dust by this time.

    Seems like logical support for the communion of the saints to me.

    What do you find problematic with this answer/example?

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  4. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably the fact that Jesus was talking to them face to face and they were hearing Him; Catholics on the other hand pray to people that they don't see at all, let alone face to face and don't have evidence to suggest that these people are actually hearing them.
     
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not the point at all. The basic principle is still the same:

    Jesus (man -- alive -- this side of the grave) was talking to Moses and Elijah (men -- alive -- the other side of the grave).

    Now what's the problem?

    By the way -- we have CONSIDERABLE proof of both the HEARING and the PERSONAL INTERVENTION of the saints in our lives. Of course, you won't accept it as such, but it is there nonetheless.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  6. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is quite significant because Jesus and the people He was talking to people who were at that moment on "this side of the grave" with Him.
     
  7. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is quite significant because Jesus and the people He was talking to people who were at that moment on "this side of the grave" with Him.</font>[/QUOTE]A perfect example of you overlooking what I said to further insinuate we Catholics preach something different than what we tell you. If you'll read my first reply, I clearly said that this isn't (or shouldn't) be used as Scripture showing "prayer to the dead" that merely those who have died are clearly still ALIVE. They weren't in heaven yet, but they certainly didn't DIE from their current state to Heaven, now did they? No. Case closed.
     
  8. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are still ignoring the fact that Jesus was having a face to face conversation whereas people praying to the dead are not. If you go back and check you will see that I was not refering to what you said, but to what CatholicConvert said.
     
  9. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dual --

    So people who pass from this life with faith in Christ are really not alive after all?

    Geeeeee, that's strange!! My Bible says that those who believe have "passed from death to life". What did they do, big guy, pass back to death again after they left this earth? If we are "alive in Christ" here on earth, how's come we are suddenly dead in Heaven?

    You sure have a strange Gospel.

    Brother Ed
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello CatholicConvert,

    I believe Dual's difficulty lies in that we do not see who we are talking to.

    I would address this difficulty (one that I had at one point in time) by pointing out that St. Paul speaks of the witness heaven has of Earth in Hebrews 12:1. And, then in Revelation, we have 5:8, which describes the heavenly liturgy wherein the saints in heaven offer the prayers of the saints on earth before the throne of God.

    For a better understanding of the relation between the Apocalypsis and the divine liturgy, I suggest reading

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=170W22XR18&isbn=0385496591

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  11. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    0
    Both of you are ignoring that I never denied that God is the God of the living and that just because saints are praying to God does not mean that they are passing on a prayer that somebody on this earth prayed to them. You have no proof that your prayers are actually being heard by these people. To illustrate this, ask me to pray for you (out loud, not by posting on this message board) and see what happens. Since in such a case I would not even be aware of your request, I can hardly try to fulfill it.
     
  12. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course not, just like I can't prove to an atheist that God exists. Last I checked, our religion was based on faith, not on physical proof that we experience through our fallible human senses.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    First of all - when I said that catholics are praying to the dead saints - I just mean they are praying to "The Dead in Christ" 1Thess 4:16 -

    Christ calls those saints who have died - "the dead" in Matt 22:31-32.

    Paul calls them as well "the dead" 1Cor 15:32

    The RCC teaches that you can not pray to a living saint - only to one who has died. The statement stands.

    ---

    However as for the objection that the dead saints in the Matt 17 (or the dead saint in this case) -was "SEEN" by the Apostles and Christ - IF we were to conjure up the dead saints today before praying to them that would be called a "seance" - it is unclear to me that non-Catholics would be "happier" with that case. Or should we ALSO argue for both seances AND praying to "the dead in Christ" from MAtt 17?

    IN the case of Elijah in Matt 17 - Elijah is not among the dead - he was translated, taken directly to heaven according to 2Kings 2. So he is not a good exmaple of praying to the "Dead in Christ"..

    But Moses - that is a different story - how will those on this board deal with that?

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    So far we have three mistakes posted by the pro-RCC posts.

    #1. Elijah was not dead - he never died.

    #2. The dead saints ARE called "The Dead in Christ" by New Testament Authors.

    #3. Nothing in Rev 5 speaks of "dead saints" or "Dead in Christ" or "Saints" offering the prayers of other saints - not even in Rev 5:8.

    The Elders of chapter 5 and the Beasts of chapter 4 are not identified as having ever been on earth or as having died or as having passed from one life to another.

    First you have to make up the idea that the Elders of chapter 5 are dead saints "the dead in Christ" - and only THEN can you start to find support for dead saints interceding on behalf of the living in the book of Revelation.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ September 08, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  15. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    So far we have three mistakes posted by the pro-RCC posts.

    #1. Elijah was not dead - he never died.

    #2. The dead saints ARE called "The Dead in Christ" by New Testament Authors.

    #3. Nothing in Rev 5 speaks of "dead saints" or "Dead in Christ" or "Saints" offering the prayers of other saints - not even in Rev 5:8.

    The Elders of chapter 5 and the Beasts of chapter 4 are not identified as having ever been on earth or as having died or as having passed from one life to another.

    First you have to make up the idea that the Elders of chapter 5 are dead saints "the dead in Christ" - and only THEN can you start to find support for dead saints interceding on behalf of the living in the book of Revelation.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]So basically what you are saying is that you had no intention of hearing what Catholics had to say about Matthew 17, but rather waiting for a Catholic to respond with his answer, and then tell him how wrong he is. Nice trap, Bob, nicely done. Keep preaching.
     
  16. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grace, Carson --

    There is no sense to arguing or even discussing with people who have made up their minds not to hear. They are as blind and stubborn as the Pharisees who denied that Jesus was the Christ.
    The perfect example is how Dual changes the structure of the question/response every time it is presented to him. Now he denies that Elijah and Moses were really on the other side of the grave -- as if they had not left earth and were not residing in Paradise apart from mankind living on earth.

    You cannot deal seriously with people who are this delusional. Why not move on?

    Brother Ed

    Just plain disgusted at this point
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Wrong again.

    Although It is obvious that I was not waiting for a Catholic member to respond to me "ex Cathedra" - I was STILL hoping for a Bible based opinion and hoping that Catholics "could tolerate" review of their use of scripture on this point.

    It never occured to me that Catholics would stop talking to you if they happen to make a mistake claiming that Elijah is a corpse - and you point that he in fact never died but was taken up to heaven without having died - I did not think it would offend Catholics to point that out to them.

    It never occured to me that Catholics would claim that Rev 5:8 identifies satins that have died and are then if someone points out that the text never calls the elders of Rev 5 "human" or "saints" or says anything about them having "died" - that Catholics would become offended at anyone pointing that fact out about the text.

    It never occured to me that Catholics would see MAtt 17 as anything but an opportunity to promote praying to the "dead in Christ". It never occured to me that the NT language of 1 Thess 4 regarding the dead saints - calling them "The dead in Christ" would offend Catholics.

    It never occured to me that pointing out that the RCC does not permit praying to living Christians and only sanctions prayers to them after they have "died" - would be offensive to Catholics.

    Perhaps I underestimated the sensitivity of Catholic members on this forum.

    My intent was to spark a cross-denominational discussion of Matt 17 as it relates to the Catholic practice of praying to the dead "in Christ".

    Those who have objected based on lack of "appearances" by the dead "in Christ" - are not considering the Marian Aparitions. There again we have the Matt 17 incident to compare to -- What say the group?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ September 08, 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  18. John3v36

    John3v36
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,146
    Likes Received:
    0
    Taken from
    THE Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth, by Scott Hahn

    As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me--in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from thePsalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."

    Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"
    .........................................................................
    How sad. All I have to say is:

    1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi John,

    You wrote, "How sad." concerning the faith of another man, whom you judge.

    Jesus tells us to "judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

    Dr. Hahn came to his conclusion after years of intense study as a seminary professor (Chesapeake Theological Seminary) and pastor in the PCA - so I would not judge so easily if I were you. His credentials soar above both yours and mine.

    He received his Bachelor of Arts degree with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy and Economics from Grove City College, Pennsylvania, in 1979, his Masters of Divinity from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in 1982, and his Ph.D. in Biblical Theology from Marquette University in 1995. And, his dissertation bibliography is over 70 pages in length.

    Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

    Carson Weber
     
  20. John3v36

    John3v36
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,146
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Corinthians 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
    10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    What are my credentials?

    Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

    1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

    [​IMG] Saint John

    [ September 08, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: John3v36 ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...