Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bill Brown, Apr 5, 2006.

  1. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eschatologically speaking, are these chapters dealing with the same event (the 2nd coming)or separate events (the second coming and the rapture)? I am interested in the reasearch you used to come with you opinion. I will certainly share mine as well. I am a historic premillenialist (in the same mold as the late James Boice). I do not hold to a premillenial rapture.
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,347
    Likes Received:
    12
    Dealing with the Second Coming. In my opinion this passage completely destroys a pre-trib rapture view,unless of course you ignore completely who Paul is writing to and what they are dealing with.

    Excellent book on the subject:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0977085554/sr=8-8/qid=1144277690/ref=sr_1_8/104-3725231-1524714?%5Fencoding=UTF8


    Book Description
    If Paul was writing to living Christians, and he was, And if those Christians were being persecuted for their faith, and they were, And if Paul promised those living Christians relief from that persecution, and he did, and if Paul promised those living Christians that their relief would come "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven", and he did, Then if Jesus did not come in the lifetime of those living Christians and give them relief from that present persecution, then, Paul was a false prophet! This is one of the greatest challenges to Biblical inspiration to be found! But, Paul did not lie, Jesus did not fail! Paul was vindicated, Jesus did not fail! This is one of the most concise, powerful, convincing expositions of 2 Thessalonians 1 that you will find. Powerful, powerful book!
     
  3. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preterist view?
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Try this link, it might help.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html
     
  5. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Double post.
     
  6. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Try this link, it might help.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you. Good work on the charts. I'm not in agreement with your conclusions but I appreciate the link.
     
  7. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Olivet Discourse was written to Jews, not the church. It is The Gospel of the Kingdom postponed until the endtimes. It describes what happens during and after the Tribulation for Jews. The church is absent, having been raptured prior to the tribulation. It envisions the 2nd Coming, the destruction of the antichrist and his evil forces, the advent of the Kingdom promised to the Jews, with the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Daniel 2, 7, 9, 12, and Revelation 13 deserve careful study. For the proper context, read all of Matthew 24 and 25, Luke 21:20-24, and 2 Th 2:1-12, merged with:

    Deu 32:5, 32:20
    Psa 2:5
    Is 1:9
    Dan 2:34
    Dan 9:24-27
    Dan 12:11
    Rev Rev 3:10-11, 12:14, 13:4-7, 14:6-7, 19:19, 20:4
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Olivet Discourse was written to Jews, not the church. I must give credit to Bob Vigneault from Christ Presbyterian Church in Janesville, WI for this point:

    (This is God speaking through Moses) Exodus 19:5-6 5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

    (This is God speaking to His chosen people, the people of God through Peter) 1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    The center of the story is not a land or ethnicity, it is a PEOPLE. A priestly, mediating people through whom God works to redeem the nations. A people bound to God by the covenant of creation, "for all the earth is mine."

    All Israel is not Israel. The people of God are the people of God.
    ___________________________________________________

    For me the separation (or lack thereof) of Israel and the church has much to do with the hermenutic used in interpreting Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4. Additionally, let me lay out a premise that was shared with me on this topic. I found it insightful:

    Premise 1: The church is the body of Christ.
    Premise 2: It is impossible to be saved apart from union with Christ.
    Premise 3: Old testament believers are in Christ.
    Premise 4: If the body of Christ includes old testament believers, then the church did not begin at Pentecost.

    If the church did not begin at pentecost, then it makes a rapture impossible. In other words the dispensational view of the church beginning at pentecost is a requirement of those who hold to a pretribulational rapture. The two are symbiotic.
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,347
    Likes Received:
    12
    The Olivet Discourse was not “written” to anyone.

    Where in all of scripture does God say He would postpone His Kingdom for any reason?

    Why does Peter say the “end of times” was present 2000 years ago?

    I Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

    Why does Paul address the “church” if the Church is raptured out before the second coming?

    2Th 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Who is the “you” and “those” in these verses?

    2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you ,
    2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
     
  10. Jo$h

    Jo$h
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    1
    The primary rule of hermeneutics is called the "analogy of faith." The analogy of faith is the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture. Another principle of hermeneutics is that the implicit (that which is suggested though not plainly expressed) is to be interpreted by the explicit (that which is clearly stated).

    1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
    2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
    3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16
    4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
    5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
    6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17
    7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17
    8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2
    9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4
    10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3
    11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
    12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4
    13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7
     
  11. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you, Jo$h!
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
     
  13. Jo$h

    Jo$h
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    1
    If Jesus is coming in the same manner as Acts Ch 1 indicates, did He leave riding a horse?

    Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now , and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    Exodus 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians..

    Deuteronomy 33:2 "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai , and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints from his right hand went a fiery law for them. "

    Psalm 144:5 "Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down : touch the mountains, and they shall smoke."

    II Samuel 22:7 "In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. 8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. 9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down ; and darkness was under his feet. 11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind

    Since coming down is OT figurative/judgement language, what do think Zech 14:4,5 is talking about?

    Paul says there were (1st Thessalonians 4:15-5:9, 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12)
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jo$h: //If Jesus is coming in the same manner as Acts Ch 1 indicates, did He leave riding a horse?//

    He did NOT leave riding a horse.
    He left into the clouds. He shall come back once
    riding a horse and FROM THE CLOUDS. But At
    the Glorious Second Coming Event, Jesus will arrive
    leading the Cloud of Heaven's horsemen & riding
    a horse. The Lord shall return as he left:
    he left to the sky to a cloud, he shall Return at this
    glorious second coming event from the sky with the
    cloud.

    Revelation 19:4 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the armies which were in heauen followed him
    vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen, white and cleane.

    All of us on the white horses will, from a distance,
    look like a water cloud.

    Jo$h: //Since coming down is OT figurative/judgement language,
    what do think Zech 14:4,5 is talking about? //

    Literal future events to Zec and literal future events to us.

    Zec 14:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And his feet shall stand in that day vpon the mount of Oliues, which is before Ierusalem on the East, and the mount of Oliues shall cleaue in the midst thereof toward the East, and toward the West, and there shall bee a very great valley, and halfe of the Mountaine shall remoue toward the North, and halfe of it toward the South.
    Zec 14:5 And ye shal flee to the valley of the mountaines: for the valley of the mountaines shal reach vnto Azal: yea, ye shall flee like as yee fled from before the earthquake in the dayes of Uzziah king of Iudah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the Saints with thee.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)

    Jo$h: //Paul says there were (1st Thessalonians
    4:15-5:9, 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12)//

    Feel free to describe what you are trying
    to get out of these scriptures.
    Probably the verses you suggest refer
    to the Glorious Second Coming of the Lord
    in Power and Glory WHICH IS NOT THE SAME
    EVENT as the rapture event.
    The Glorious Second Coming of the Lord
    in Power and Glory Event is preceeded by
    many signs and will happen about 7-years
    after the Rapture Event. The big sign of
    the Glorious Second Coming of the Lord
    in Power and Glory is the 7-year Tribulation
    period.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  17. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Some folks have a hard time separating the Rapture and the 2nd Coming, Ed. Then there are those who deny one or both. All scripture is spiritually discerned. That being the case, how can there be differences as to its proper interpretation?

    Everyone can take two Alka-Seltzer and call me in the morning, or everyone can received Christ as Savior and Lord, grow in knowledge and wisdom and strength, receive the gift of spiritual discernment, and....... when that happens we'll all hold hands around the world, sing the same song, while rejoicing in His presence. ;)
     
  18. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    G12, are you suggesting that those who deny a rapture (i.e., Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, Charles Spurgeon, John Gill, James Arminius, John Wesley, R.C Sproul, etc) are unspiritual?
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who is G12?
    There was a Genesis12 posted, but he said
    something entirely different :confused:
     
  20. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    You were doing pretty good 'til you got to R.C. Sproul, Calvin. What I said was this:

    "That being the case, how can there be differences as to its proper interpretation?"

    Using the technique employed by Our Lord, I'll answer your question after you answer mine -- correctly.
     

Share This Page

Loading...