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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pioneer, Apr 27, 2003.
Why is it necessary to have condemning attitudes when we believe someone is wrong?
Perhaps this is why the administrators of this web site created this forum for those of us that belong to a Fundamentalist position on things pertaining to doctrine and Christianity, in general.
I find nothing condemnatory in Dr. Griffin's statements - rather I find it rather sad that there are so many thin-skinned "warriors" for CHRIST that are so easily offended by the harsh realities.
People don't just wake up one day and embrace doctrinal error - especially if they are saved. They get that way because they are not willing to listen to the Word of GOD from the Man of GOD - preferring rather to get their theological "degrees" from websites that cater to their particular leanings. I've seen them all, I believe. I have been to websites that advertise themselves to be Christian only to find out when I posted there that it caters to 'anything goes' which includes blasphemers (new agers) and liberals with a perverted view towards the things of GOD.
Personally, I am glad that I have returned to this site. Think I'm going to stay here till JESUS comes if that is all right with Dr. Griffin.
But I intend to tell you right here and now that I am not ashamed to be associated with true Fundamentalists. It only takes a little bit of conversing with someone to know which is which.
Read the threads where these quotes are found. There is an underlying current of condemnation of any pastor who would dare preach standards of righteousness from the pulpit.
[ April 27, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
Thank you, Pioneer. I will.
All I was responding to were your remarks which appeared to be critical of Dr. Griffin. Perhaps you might want to go back and edit your O.P. so that others will not misunderstand.
You might also want to provide a link. If you don't know to do it, just go up to the http line above and copy that whole string and paste it right into your post. That way we can ride the link.
The most hurtful condemning attitudes I've come across were those from Christians, who were sitting under erroneous teaching. When I wouldn't go along with it, because I knew better ... man! Suddenly, I was a "problem".
I just ate, and while eating I read an article in the local newspaper about salt. It said that natural salt contains about 84 minerals, most of which (if not all) the human body needs for proper function. Modern table salt contains just two of those minerals, sodium and chlorid, i.e. sodiumchlorid. The author said that natural sea salt is a thousand times better than this modern perverted salt. These things I knew from before. He also said that in former times salt (unrefined) was worth more than gold. I think it is only in the last 100 years or so that men have used refined salt, and abandoned natural salt. The result is a weakening of the immune systems of men, and many sicknesses.
I came to think of how Jesus Christ the Lord said to His disciples in Matthew chapter 5 that they are the salt of the earth etc. Christ's disciples in their right element are the salt of the earth, to be compared to natural salt. Nowadays one sees very little of salty disciples of Christ, just as one has to go searching to find natural unrefined healthy salt. Instead one finds unsalted would-be disciples of Christ, and Christendom so called is in a state of permanent sickness, the immune system being broken down more and more, and all kinds of heresies and perverse practices abounding, and hardly no one says anything. It is an era of "peace, peace, all is well".
Perverse religious practices spring from perverse and unbiblical doctrine, and perverse and unbiblical doctrine clinged to on a permanent basis speaks of unregeneracy of heart.
I can relate to the fact of which Ally spoke. There was a time when I began questioning certain teachings in a Baptists church to which I belonged. It was legitimate questioning. The people did not love sound doctrine so I was a troublemaker, I was arrogant, I was beginning to apostatize. I seemed to be many things to these people just because I could not swallow their unbiblical teachings and practices and spoke out about them. Eventually I separated, which was the only biblical thing to do. To this day I have not heard about any other having separated from them and having stayed sober in doctrine. One friend came out just after myself but he showed his colors by joining the Lutherans. Now his main mission is to defend baby baptism and Luther, and to contend against immersion. Sad indeed, but life is not a dance on roses.
Harald, thank you for that post. Sometimes, the way I 'cope' with some of the things that happened, and with the fact that other people are still there, is to be a bit sarcastic about it. But, I'm working on it. Your post, put things into a better perspective. Thanks.
Harold, you spoke of having problems with a Baptist church with which you ultimately had to break fellowship with. I suppose Paul was alluding to this when he wrote: "All Israel is not Israel." 'Baptist in name only's' are much of the cause by which we are reproached today and grouped all together as one big hypocritical farce.
The same is quite often true by the use of the word "Fundamental." Sure, I know that every wierd offshoot of Islam has been called "Fundamentalist" for so long that many can't or won't see a distinction.
Yet, in our own country, from about 1950 to perhaps 1980 or so, there was no doubt as to what a Fundamentalist was - in context of Christianity.
Unfortunately, somehow the term has 'caught on' to the extent that now churches are labeling themselves as "Independant" and "Fundamental" when the truth is, old-timers like J. Frank Norris and G. Beauchamp Vick would have separated themselves from them as well.
It is to this trend that I suppose I just prefer to call myself a Bible believer. It is still pretty easy to distinguish a biblicist from a Baptist.
While I have never been to the USA I have had a certain interest in the religious scene of it. The first people in USA with which I made contact were such who called themselves Fundamentalist. This was about the time of my separation from the Baptists I mentioned, in 1999. I have learnt quite much valuable things from men who call themselves Fundamental Baptist. Among them was David W Cloud, of whom I bought quite a few of his books already in 1998. A man who strengthened me considerably at the time of my separation was David Cummings of Baptist World Mission in Decatur, AL. It was through a written letter of his which he sent with some books I had ordered from them. Among them was one of the best books I know of concerning separation, Ernest Pickering's Biblical Separation. While today I do not agree with much of what these men teach and believe, mainly soteriology, I still feel a certain amount of gratitude and respect towards them, and cannot but thank the Lord God that He in His providence brought them across my path with whatever help they have provided when I stood in need of it.
It was from these men that I learned the value of Biblical Separation, and since that I have considered myself a separatist, among other things. Yet I am not so fond of attaching labels to myself. And since that time I have learned more about separation by studying what the word of God says about it, and applying it in practise. It is a sad fact that in my country the people who call themselves Baptist know hardly nothing about Biblical Separation. All Baptist churches in Finland right now, as far as I am aware, are charismatic, except one, and their soteriology is pretty much the false gospel which Billy Graham preaches. They know about Billy Graham, and about Spurgeon. These are about the only Baptists outside of Finland they know of. The Finnish Baptists are a farce. They could not care less for Baptist history or distinctives. I learnt some time ago that the Baptist movement came to Finland in about 1870, and the comers were Arminians or Fullerites, and accordingly the Baptists remaining are in total apostasy from the faith of the New Testament.
It is quite sad when one begins to compare today's Baptists in general with e.g. the Particular Baptists of England of the 17th century, men like Kiffin and Knollys et.al. They made the epithet Baptist honorable. Today it has lost much of its meaning, quite like the much misused word Christian. Sad but true.
Thank you Harald...for that interesting Post...
Some parents in my SS Class today...were sharing their worries about their daughter's church...They had gone to visit her for Easter...and had attended Church with her...
When they got to the Lord's Supper...trays were passed around...and on the tray...tiny cups...covered with tin foil...pre-wrapped...commercially produced...tear off the top...and there is a waffer...tear of the next top...and there is the wine...
gives new meaning to fast food...doesn't it?...
to make such a joke of one of the sacraments of the church...to me is heracy...
The Lord's Supper is for Rememberance...should not be taken lightly...nor pre-packaged...nor mass produced...nor commercially distributed...nor hurried thru...
but rather prayed over...contemplated...and savored...reveranced...and preformed with much love...for our Lord...in Rememberance...
but then...were we not warned...of this...over and over...the apostacy...
I thought a condemning attitude and snide remarks were both necessary to be a fundamental Baptist...
An independent, fundamental Baptist
Note: Post edited for personal attacks.
[ April 28, 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]
Rather than chiding the posts of a man of God in the open forum, why not discuss it privately with him in P.M.?
Is this not also what the Bible teaches?
editted post to remove defense of the poster being chided, as he is well equipped to handle it without my intervention on his part.
[ April 30, 2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Wisdom Seeker ]
You know me and I am surprised that any would even question what I said! I openly and clearly, lest anyone should think otherwise, condemn what I perceive to be sin.
Sometimes sarcasem, satire or humor, sometime just point the finger and say "the emperor has no clothes". So I am "condemning" and "evil", the butt of this thread.
The EVIL here, friends, is not the one pointing the finger. THAT is what preachers do! It is the legalistic, pharisaical attitude of some who are "hijacking" historic baptist fundamentalism into a hollow parody of itself. It is those who substitute keeping man-made rules for inner godliness.
Hey, you may not like it, but don't shoot the messenger!
"The EVIL here, friends, is not the one pointing the finger. THAT is what preachers do! It is the legalistic, pharisaical attitude of some who are "hijacking" historic baptist fundamentalism into a hollow parody of itself. It is those who substitute keeping man-made rules for inner godliness."
I agree with you, Dr. Bob......
but would add......
Inner godliness shines through to the outside and alters the way we think and live.
What is the fruit of the Spirit? Is it sarcasm, cynicism, scorn, criticism, mockery, or rudeness?
Of course not "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering , gentleness , goodness , faith, meekness, temperance : against such there is no law." Gal 5:22-23 (KJV)
If I understand my Bible correctly, these are the characteristics that are to be evident in the life of a Christian who is Spirit-filled.
Some people pride themselves on their ability to "verbally assault" the opposition in a debate. I find that quality nowhere in the Word of God. What I do find is...
Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. (KJV) and...
Proverbs 25:15 By long forbearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft tongue breaketh the bone. (KJV)
Some people think it a virtue to be able to say (post) whatever they think, regardless of how it might make someone else feel. Again, I do not find this quality anywhere in the Scriptures. What I do find is...
Proverbs 14:33 Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known. (KJV) and...
Proverbs 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. (KJV) and...
Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him. (KJV)
You see, God is not blind to what is going on here on the Baptist Board. You and I will still have to give account for everything we post here. Just because we can sit safely behind our desks at home and become anything we want to be, and project any kind of image we want to project, and no one will be the wiser, doesn't mean that we can throw biblical principles out the window.
God's Word still says that we are to give Him the glory in everything we do. If we are not manifesting the fruit of the Spirit as we post on the BB, then we are not being Christ-like. If we are not being Christ-like, then we really don't have anything to offer that is worth hearing.
If you walk out into a field and come upon a tree that has apples on it, you can be certain that is an apple tree. Why? Because you can see the fruit. You know where I'm going with this. When others see your posts, what fruit are they seeing? Are they seeing the fruit of a carnal Christian or are they seeing the fruit of a Spirit-filled Christian?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (KJV)
Yes! Pastor Bob...very nicely said!
Since everyone on this particular forum is considered to be a born-again, Bible-believing Christian, I am wondering why some find it necessary/desireable to attack others, or to use sarcasm or mocking or derogatory statements in their posts. Would we want OUR children to be doing that to each other?
We are one body in Christ. Shouldn't we be careful to treat each other that way? Is a matter of mistaken doctrine a reason to refer to a person, either implicitly or explicitly, as ignorant, stupid, ridiculous, deceived, or maybe not a Christian?
How many people are driven farther from Christianity because of the nastiness they see from Christians, even towards one another? We probably each could name a few, I think...
However, Pastor Bob, it is our place to point out unscriptural views or it is the same as endorsing those views. If I were to not reply when someone says it's okay to hate people with one leg because God hates people with one leg... then I would be saying I agree.
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control.
I agree with Pastor Bob, Helen and Dr. Bob Griffin.
I feel that Dr. Bob's words were taken out of context so I am glad that the links were placed to explain. Thank you Baptist Believer for suggesting that.
The following is a little off the subject but was posted on this thread and I would like to respond to it:
I personally think this might be the best way to go in this day in time to avoid germs, etc. Wonder where they bought these? I got sick once from a person who was handling the bread (crackers). We use the plastic cups so that is sanitary, but think about when people pick the crackers from the tray and how many hands touch the crackers.