Conditional Election Bluntly Asserted By Jesus Christ

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 6, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    In John's gospel we read these words, fatal to Calvinism, as spoken by the Lord to His disciples on the night in which He was betrayed.

    "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

    Salient points to be noted from this text:

    1. The Father's love spoken of here is not His general love for all mankind, but His particular love for His elect. This is evident from the fact that it is reserved for those who love and believe on Christ.

    2. The cause for which God set His particular redeeming love on the elect is their love for and faith in Christ.

    Let's read the text again for good measure:

    "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. HanSola2000

    HanSola2000
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Doesn't matter Mark. Calvinistic eisegesis will require that we "see" that God put the love in their hearts and caused it. I mean, its right there in the verse if you just inhale enough Calvinistic writitngs! Then you too can "see" things.
     
  3. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly! Now we're beginning to understand the truth, right? Has nothing to do with Calvinistic writings but is purely biblical truth, supported by the calvinistic writings! God did by HIs HOly Spirit put that very truth in our hearts, the love, obedience and worship of a majestic, holy God!! Praise Him!!
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

    The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

    "Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
    "so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

    In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.
    God’s action is “HE came to His OWN” – He took the initiative in choosing “His Own” and “He came to them”.
    The reaction of the elect of the selected of the chosen “And His OWN received Him NOT”.
    God states His own purpose in coming into the world and “enlightening EVERY man” – which is “That ALL might believe”

    This is the act of an impartial God who "so loved the world" that He gives His Son to a race of depraved humans to be "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.
    It is only because of God's WILL that any are saved. Man had not ability to "Will himself" a Savior.
    So our Impartial God (Rom 2:11) sends Christ our Lord and Savior to be the Atoning Sacrifice for "Our Sins" and NOT for "Our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World" 1John 2:2

    Then we see that “To as many as received” (here is a contrast between those who choose NOT to receive and those who choose TO receive – it is NOT a contrast in what GOD did – but in what MAN did in response to God) -- TO THEM He gave… The sequence is clear. God came to ALL that ALL might believe. And specifically He came to HIS OWN – and the result is that the some choose to receive and some did not choose that. But it is the SAME impartial God coming into the WORLD and enlightening “Every man”!!
     
  5. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2002
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reply to Hansola's comments:

    You are so right; perhaps it is a classic case of "Emperor's new clothes" syndrome. Our Calvinist friends don't want to look silly in front of their fellow Calvinists so they come up with a tortured exegesis when interpreting the Bible. Maybe deep down they are not convinced themselves but don't have the courage the little boy had in the Emperor's New Clothes story.

    Kind regards to all.

    Bob
     
  6. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  7. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Somehow mixed up that quote feature! Forgive! The above is by me, except for the 'kind regards to all, Bob'
    Not sure how that happened!! :(
     
  8. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 16:27

    "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

    The Father loving us above substantiates 1 John 4:19:

    "We love him, because he first loved us"

    God first loved us enabling us to love him and his son Jesus Christ.
     
  9. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,505
    Likes Received:
    40
    Good point!

    Just keep in mind that "enabling" is not the same as "compelling"
     
  10. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the standard Calvinist answer on this verse is that it doesn't refer to salvation but just what it says, the God loves us when we love Jesus. Of course, He would love believers anyway, so this must refer to some greater love or relationship that is experienced when you activily love Jesus.

    Though I am [mostly] a Calvinist, I have never found this convincing. I think this verse says just what it says, God loves us when we love His son. The question of salvation is not explicit though I see no reason to clearly try to divorce it as well. We still need to reconcile this with 1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us" and they may indeed create a minor paradox that we won't understand in this lifetime.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    ROCK OF AGES

    Should my tears, forever flow;
    Should my zeal no languor now;
    These for sin could not atone,
    Thou must save, and Thou alone.


    Rock of Ages, cleft for me
    Let me hide myself in thee ...
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no paradox at all.

    God first loved the whole human race by sending Christ to taste death for every man. Had God not done that no man would ever have believed in nor loved God.

    God set that love in a particular and redeeming way on those who accepted God's love by believing on Christ.

    The "paradox" exists only in the minds of those who presuppose that God pre-selected who to save and who to damn.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isn't it wonderful how an unregenerate man, dead in sin who is at enmity with God and can't understand spiritual things somehow can get some common sense on his own and manufacture faith inside of himself and please God.
    If man could only understand that it's within his power to make God save him thereby saving himself. Wow what a concept.
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sarcasm will not substitute for Scripture. The fact reamins that Christ said,

    "the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me and have believed that I came out from God."

    Of course, it is a wonderful thing that God sent His Son into the world to, in John's words lighten "every man which cometh into the world." Had He not done that, we would have all remained in darkness. Since He did do that He bids us as His rational and enlightened creatures, to

    "Come now, let us reason together."

    To which I say, "Glory to God in the highest, peace on earth, good will toward men."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    "the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me and have believed that I came out from God."

    We love God because he first loved us, He continues to love us because we love his Son.

    It is God who initiates our loving relationship with him and perpetuates this love because we continue to love Jesus.

    Let's keep the horses in front of the buggy.
     

Share This Page

Loading...