Conditional salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bluefalcon, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    From reading a few recent threads, it seems some are concerned that we may be abandoning age-old Baptist principles, i.e., the conditions for salvation. Everyone here agrees that belief in the resurrected Jesus is necessary. What about the age-old condition of genuine repentance? Acts 8:9-24 is a good test passage. Of Simon the Sorcerer it says he "believed" and was "baptized" (8:13), but 8:20 and 8:22 seem to make it clear he had not genuinely repented and was still hell-bound. So what about genuine repentance? If one says he's had a religious experience, as clearly the Bible says of Simon the Sorcerer, but has no evidence of genuine repentance, the age-old Baptist doctrine, I contend, is that he's still damned to hell, because salvation always has been and always will be conditional.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
  2. gb93433

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    A genuine saving faith is coupled with a genuine belief in Christ. Genuine belief in Christ is always accompanied by genuine repentance. That can take many outward forms. I would contend that many who walk the isle have not been followed up on and discipled teaching them what Jesus commanded in Mt. 28:19,20. It is disobedience on the part of the older believers and expecting the new Christian to grow. A teacher has only taught when the message has been received. The message is only received when the recipient puts it into action. Jesus never taught with words only and neither should we. If we do, then we are saying we are better than Jesus.
     
  3. IfbReformer

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    Where does it say he was still hell-bound? Yes he commited a great sin, but believers can commit great sins, especially right after they are saved and are still in ignorance.

    Geniune repentance in regards to salvation(the repentance that leads to salvation) is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord(God) and Savior. If we accept that he is our Savior, then we accept what he has saved us from - the penalty of our sins - which is eternal death - in this we accept our sinful condition being convicted of our sins we turn to Christ as our only means of redemption.

    If you say repentance that leads to salvation is more than conviction and sorrow for sin, but that it is pledging to the Lord to stop sinning, you have added something to repentance the Bible does not.

    God wants us to stop sinning and there are many commands to Christians to turn from(stop) doing certain sins they were still doing after they were saved. But this is not a precondition to salvation.

    As I have said many times and no one on this board can show otherwise, there is not one passage in the New Testament that says we need to repent[turn from, stop doing] of our sins before God will save us. He saves us as sinners, and then after saving us exhorts us to yield ourselves to him for progressive sanctification.

    By they way, I am not saying that there will be no change in the life a true believer - for the scriptures make it clear we are new creatures when we are saved.

    The strawmen that many people put up, is that ALL those who do not agree with their definition of repentance that leads to salvation believe there may not be any change, but just belief - while there are some that teach that, I and many others like me do not believe that way - there will be change, but the question, how much? Thats the real debate.

    This is where we get into laundry lists of things a "true" Christian must be doing and will be doing or else we can right them off as unsaved.

    IFBReformer
     
  4. donnA

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    There was only one condition for my salvation, and Jesus did that for me.
     
  5. Plain Old Bill

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    GB93433 & IFB Reformer,
    You guys preach it!
     
  6. Bluefalcon

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    Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Nothing is said about believing. Repentance goes hand and hand with it. It is a modern thing to say that one can believe and receive eternal life without repenting.

    Acts 3:19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

    Peter again is preaching repentance unto God for eternal life.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
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    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Salvation is by grace, not by works.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If there were any conditions attached to salvation then it would be "of works." Salvation is not of works, that is, it is unconditional, all of the grace of God. There is nothing that man can do to merit the grace of God. If there was, then grace would not be grace.
    DHK
     
  8. carlaimpinge

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    Simon had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost, although he had believed and was baptized. The laying on of hands by the apostles GAVE the gift here.

    Righteousness is GIVEN by the Spirit. (Rom.8)

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  9. Bluefalcon

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    So you think repentance is a "work"? Is that the biblical view of repentance?

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
  10. carlaimpinge

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    Paul preached repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, along with works of repentance. (Acts 17, 20, 26)

    There is an initial repentance through the WORK of the Holy Spirit (reproving) after hearing the words of God which brings conviction. (John 16) Faith unto righteousness is then given unto salvation (Eph.2), by our belief. (Rom.3)

    Acceptance and understanding of the REPROVING of the Holy Spirit of you as a sinner and your sins IS NOT works. (Rom.3) The law of faith operates.
     
  11. steaver

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    I agree with ifb, repent means turn or change directions. Stop this and do that. When the scripture says repent concerning salvation, it is saying turn from unbelief to belief and even this repentance is powered by the Holy Ghost. When the scripture says repent concerning sanctification it is saying turn from your sins and this is powered by the Holy Ghost as well.

    I need saved first so I will have the power of the Holy Spirit working with me to clean up my act.

    When my wife was saved 7 years ago she was an alcholic. My son asked her to go to a special play that was going on called Heavens gates Hells flames, you might of heard of it. It is a moving performance. When the invitation was given for anyone who wanted to receive the grace of God she trembled all over and resisted the work of the Holy Spirit on her. After a minute or so went by she was falling apart in tears and cried out in her heart to God and said, "I cannot accept you Lord because tomorrow I will be right back at the bar stool getting drunk and that would not be right". At that moment she heard a voice that was only audiable to her in her conscience which said these simple words "trust in me". And at that moment she said it felt like someone taking warm water and puring it onto her head and it continued down throughout her whole body. She cried for days and never touched another drop of the devils brew since. I personally know the before and after of her life. She was converted for sure and is a new creature in Christ.

    I know everyone doesn't have such a dramatic conversion. But she definitly had a Holy Spirit experience that she will never forget, nor I for I have seen the evidence in her life.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  12. IfbReformer

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    Bluefalcon,

    Nothing is mentioned of repentance in the Gospel of John, only belief - they are do go hand in hand - we agree there.

    But it is how you define repentance - there is repentance about particular sins(turning from bad habits and such) and the there is a repentance that leads to salvation - these are different.

    Turning from(repenting of) a list of knowns sins we have will not save us. The only repentance that will save us is changing from our old state of mind to a new state(which God grants us) it is turning from our old attitude toward God and our sin and taking on God's view, accepting him at his Word. It is turning to God in faith and in trust and accepting the gift he freely offers. Its not making a pledge to never sin again or taking a laundry list of sins we pledge to get rid of with us when we ask God to save us. It is acknowledgement of, a conviction and sorrow for our sinful state, asking God to forgive us and save us.

    From that instant we have the imputed rightousness of Christ and can never perish eternally. Our faith(the faith God grants us) is credited to us for righteousness as was Abraham's.

    Even in the quotes you give from Acts, none say repent of(turn from) your sins be saved. It says if we repent - which is synonmous with believe when speaking of salvation, we will have our sins blotted out.

    IFBReformer
     
  13. covenant

    covenant
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    WOW !!! WHAT A WAY TO START MY DAY!!! THANKS STEAVER - BEEN THERE, DONE THAT

    [​IMG]
     
  14. IfbReformer

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    Your wording here is excellant! I wish more Christians would take these truths to heart.

    IFBReformer
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Steaver,

    Both believe and repent go together for salvation.

    John, the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others often saying, "Repent". They do not mean that 'believe' is not include there. Also, The gospel of John does not saying 'repent' is being exclude from that book. Apostle John knew both repent and believe are include for salvation. Earlier Jesus told people to repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand before Christ witness to the Pharisee of John chapter 3.

    Believe means to agree on, reply on, depend on.

    I do believe repent is also include Romans 10:9-13, because of word, 'confess' does include with repent, show how serious torward Jesus Christ, ask for salvation by believe and repent together same time.

    It is true that repent is change of mind as change from unbelief to belief, but it is also more than that. It also astain from evil, turn from old habits, and turn toward Christ with sorrow repentance, ask for forgive and confess believe Christ died for our sins, and believe Christ was risen from the dead.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
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    No. How could you even come to that conclusion when I quoted to you Rom.11:6 and Eph.2:8,9. Repentance is not a work, and has nothing to do with works. It is change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.
    Someone sayd that, a woman reserves the right to change her mind on any day at any time. Does it require work for her to do so? If so, what work does she do to change her mind on any given thing? If she changes her mind about what kind of shoes to wear did she labour to do that? No. Changing your mind is not a work.

    Repentanct is not a work. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. Once my attitude was one of rebellion towards God; now that I have repented (changed my mind), I have an attitude of pleasing God and want to live for Him. My attitude toward God has changed. That is repentance.

    The only requirement for salvation is faith, and faith alone. That is what Paul told the jailor:
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." That is what is taught in John 3:16. That is what is taught all throughout the Bible. That is the great message of the Bible that is thundered through every book of the New Testament and many of the Old Testament books as well. We are justified by faith.
    Faith includes repentance. You cannot have faith in Christ without having a change of mind towards the Saviour. That just does not make sense. It is not logical. When Saul believed on Christ on his way to Damascus his attitude toward Christ was changed dramatically. "Who art thou LORD?" He submitted to Christ as Lord for the first time in his life. His attitude was changed. When he believed he repented. Belief and repentance go hand in hand. Neither one are works.
    DHK
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    You can't turn from old habits or abstain from evil(at least not in the power of the Lord) until you are saved - so why do we ask those who are spiritually dead to do those things they can only do after they have been made spiritually alive?

    It is also clear that turning from various sins is commanded after salvation countless times in the New Testament but never before.

    Once again repentance that leads to salvation is a recognition of, conviction of, and sorrow for one's sin and throwing one self on the mercy of Christ for salvation, accepting his authority as God and Savior and his soverign right to call our actions sin. Repentance that leads to practical sancticfacation is turning from(stop doing) various sins as the Holy Spirit brings them to our attention.

    You can say like some on this board do, that this is part of God's regenerating process in salvation that he causes you to turn from bad habits and causes you to give up your known bad sins when getting saved, but the scriptures give us evidence this view of regeneration is not true.

    Why would Paul need to preach to new believers(not unbelievers) to live right and some to give up habits they had before they were saved - if the regeneration process had already cleaned them up?

    IFBReformer
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    God demands regeneration nor reformation. What you described is reformation. Turning from old habits and trying to be a better person is no better than what a Catholic does. It is a religion of works.
    Repentance is a change of mind in one's attitude towards God. Once in rebellion to God, one's mind is changed to submission to God. It is a change of attitude toward God.
    DHK
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    DHK wrote,

    I do not understand how anyone could possibly be so confused about the doctrine of salvation. Throughout Paul’s Epistles we find him making a distinction between the covenant of Law and the covenant of grace. He makes the point in many places, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, that no man can be saved under the covenant of Law, and that keeping the Law of Moses is NOT necessary for salvation. But no where does Paul suggest that obeying Christ and His commandments is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Indeed, Paul went so far as to write those who have been saved have “died to sin,” having “been baptized into Christ Jesus” and “baptized into His death.” And he does not stop there! He writes, “if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.” Dying to sin is a requirement for our resurrection, and therefore dying to sin is a requirement for out salvation. Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

    Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
    8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
    10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    But that was what Paul taught. How about Jesus? What did He teach about this? Jesus taught the same thing, using different language. He insisted that for a man to be saved he MUST be born again,

    John 3:1. Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
    2. this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
    3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    4. Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
    5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
    8. "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

    God does not put His Holy Spirit into old wineskins,

    Luke 5:36. And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
    37. "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
    38. "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

    He puts His Holy Spirit into new wineskins, i.e., new creations in Christ Jesus,

    2 Cor. 5:17. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    And Peter preached the same message,

    22. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
    23. for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    And James was no preacher of faith without GOOD WORKS. He knew that the works of the Law were absolutely worthless for salvation, as Paul so often preached and taught, but he also knew that the works which Christ commanded us to perform were absolutely essential for salvation,

    James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
    15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
    16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
    17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
    18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
    19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
    20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
    21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
    23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
    24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
    26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    The works described here by James are not the keeping of the Law of Moses (the works that Paul said are useless for salvation); the works described here are the very works that Jesus commanded us to perform.

    And John wrote,

    1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    “Sleeping” with every girl in choir is a sin, no matter what your attitude toward God may be. Real repentance goes very far beyond a mere change in one’s attitude. The Bible doesn’t just tell us to change our attitude—it tells us to stop sinning—it tells us to repent! Pussyfooting with the word “repentance” won’t spare anyone from the fires of hell.

    [​IMG]
     

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