1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Conditional Security in Apostolic Fathers Writings

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Stanislaw, Nov 27, 2008.

Top Posters
  1. Stanislaw

    Stanislaw New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have read and studied much material for and against conditional security, the question of can a real born again Christian lose their salvation. The debaters on both sides of the question use scripture for their position. In another thread I asked, “Are there any writings from church history that support the doctrine of eternal security?”, The fine answer posted was, ”I don't think you will find anyone else prior to Calvin who advocates eternal security. Augustine, although he doesn't really advocate it, certainly developed a lot of its doctrines.”. Writings from early church history seem to support the side that a Christians could lose their salvation. I have included the following quotes for your consideration.

    AN ANCIENT HOMILY BY AN UNKNOWN AUTHOR 7. For as concerning them that have not kept the seal, He saith, Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh.

    AN ANCIENT HOMILY BY AN UNKNOWN AUTHOR 17. how much more is it wrong that a soul which knoweth God already should perish !

    AN ANCIENT HOMILY BY AN UNKNOWN AUTHOR 18. For I myself too, being an utter sinner and not yet escaped from temptation, but being still amidst the engines of the devil, do my diligence to follow after righteousness, that I may prevail so far at least as to come near unto it, while I fear the judgement to come.

    EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILADELPHIANS 3. If any man followeth one that maketh a schism, he doth not inherit the kingdom of God.

    EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS 11. If a man refrain not from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the Gentiles who know not the judgement of the lord.

    THE TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES 16. Be watchful for your life; ….. for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you, if ye be not perfected at the last season. ….. but they that endure in their faith shall be saved

    THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS 2. We ought therefore, brethren, to learn accurately concerning our salvation, lest the Evil One having effected an entrance of error in us should fling us away from our life.

    THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS 4. For the whole time of our faith shall profit us nothing, unless we now, in the season of lawlessness and in the offences that shall be, as becometh sons of God, offer resistance, that the Black One may not effect an entrance.

    lest perchance, if we relax as men that are called, we should slumber over our sins, and the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS vision 1:2 if this sin is recorder against me, how can I be saved?

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS vision 2:2 Ye therefore that work righteousness be steadfast, and be not double-minded, that ye may have admission with the holy angles.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS vision 3:5 These have sinned, and desire to repent, therefore they were not cast to a great distance from the tower, because they will be useful for the building, if they repent. They then that shall repent, if they repent, will be strong in the faith, if they repent now while the tower is building. But if the building shall be finish, they have no more any place, but shall be castaways.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS mandate the forth:1 For this desire in a servant of God is a great sin; and if any man doeth this evil deed, he worketh out death for himself.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS mandate 7 they that keep not His commandments have no life in them.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS mandate 12:1 through what works the evil desire bringeth death to the servants of God.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS similitudes 9:14 but if they repent not, then others will go, and these shall be cast away finally.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS similitudes 9:18 but they that have known God and seen His mighty works, and yet commit wickedness, shall receive a double punishment, and shall die eternally.

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS similitudes 9:26 they that believed are such as these;….. If then they abide in the same evil desire, they are dead and there is no hope of life for them;

    THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS similitudes 9:27 and their place is even now with the angles, if they shall continue unto the end serving the Lord.

    THE RELIQUES OF THE ELDERS PRESERVED IN IRENAEUS 9. but ourselves to fear, lest haply, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do anything which pleases not God, we no longer have remission of our sins, but find ourselves shut out of His Kingdom.

    JUSTIN MARTYR DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO 47 And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved.
     
    #1 Stanislaw, Nov 27, 2008
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    How about John?
    He was a writer. And he is before your list. If your list is early, John is much earlier. And besides, John's writings are in the Bible and therefore something we can count on as being true.

    John 13

    Jesus Washes the Disciples’ Feet

    I believe I'll go with the Bible on this one. :)
     
    #2 Jarthur001, Nov 27, 2008
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    How about Paul?

    Paul was a writer. He too is much earlier then you list. He too is in the Bible.

    Romans 8...


    Are you a creature? I mean, are you created by God? If so, you can not separate yourself from God.

    Again...I think i'll stick with the Bible on this one. :)
     
    #3 Jarthur001, Nov 27, 2008
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Stanislaw, welcome.

    Since you list no denominational preference or home church, you may not post in the Baptist-only forums, which are clearly marked.

    I'm going to ask the moderator to move this thread to "Other Christian Denominations," where you are welcome to post at any time.
     
    #4 Tom Butler, Nov 27, 2008
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seconded and carried.
     
    #5 Dr. Bob, Nov 28, 2008
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    Nevermind, I'll let it go
     
    #6 Allan, Nov 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2008
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    'Conditional security' is a contradiction in terms.
    It is as good as I take out a life-insurance policy, but the condition is I shouldn't die!

    'Conditional security' is a farce; it's worse; it's the denial and rejection of God's assurances.
     
    #7 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 28, 2008
  8. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is just one more example of how important it is to stick strictly with the scriptures, and not heed other sources of "so called" authority, such as the church fathers.

    These church fathers are dead wrong on this topic.


    :godisgood:
     
    #8 Alive in Christ, Nov 29, 2008
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    Someone please explain why it matters.
     
    #9 billwald, Nov 30, 2008
  10. Chris83

    Chris83 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because you have to go to the Bible to find someone Boasting in their salvation -- ex. Paul.
     
    #10 Chris83, Nov 30, 2008
  11. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    20
    Why does it matter? Because the early church fathers were so close in time to the writing of scripture that they naturally would have understood it better than we do. Why? Because they were more knowledgeable of the times in which they lived and, most importantly, many of them either knew or had close connection with the apostles.
    • Ignatius was a disciple of John, who wrote four books of the N.T.
    • Polycarp was also a disciple of John.
    • The Teaching of the Apostles, also known as the Didache, was probably written around 50 A.D., before any of the N.T. was written.
    • Iranaeus of Lyons was a disciple of Polycarp.
    • Justin Martyr was born about 100 A.D. and converted to Christianity about 130 A.D.
    To say that these men had an understanding of scripture inferior to us would be like saying that our understanding of World War II is not as good as people will have 2000 years from now. Or it would be like saying that people far removed in time and distance would know more about the lives and beliefs of my mother and father than I do. The church fathers were not inspired but they are certainly entitled to more deference than anyone alive today.
     
    #11 Zenas, Nov 30, 2008
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...